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Patterning at 13 yards

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by butcher, Sep 14, 2013.

  1. butcher

    butcher Member

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    What is the process of patterning your gun at 13 yards? Outside of centering the pattern can you calculate how many inches it will shoot at 40 yards?
     
  2. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    13 yards is just for checking POI (point of impact). Pattern at 35 yards.
     
  3. mich746

    mich746 Member

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    http://www.mn-trap.org/tech_corner/n_winston/nw_poi_pattern.html
     
  4. bigeoj

    bigeoj Member

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    1" high at 13 yds. = 3" high at 39yds. 2" high at 13 yds.= 6" high at 39yds and so forth. Joe
     
  5. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Shooting for POI at 13 yards may, or may not have consequences. I type with two fingers, so do a search on the subject for my posts.

    Synopsis, I don't think it a good idea if you intend to extrapolate to 40 yards.
    Rib height and cant can have a significant effect on the results.

    I will add, you are way ahead of most for simply asking that question.
     
  6. Martinpicker

    Martinpicker Active Member

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    This not the results of a scientific study, just a personal observation....

    If you pattern at 13 yards to a + on the board...then count the shot above and below the horizontal line...and you come up with a figure that your gun is shooting 80/20...(80% of the shot above the line...) then at 35 yards you gun will actually pattern about 70/30.

    This would, of course, vary depending on the size of shot, the amount of shot and the powder load you are using to pattern. Martinpicker
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The link is above and calculations to longer ranges at near the end but I've never seen the point of getting too precise about that.

    Section Three covers pattern estimating - modified, full, that sort of thing.

    I works far, far better than what almost everyone does: unknown distance, "eyeballing" the pattern, all that.

    The pictures can be trusted. But you have to follow the rules. 13 measured yards, not 13 "paces" or however you like to estimate distances. You have to use light 7 1/2 premium factory shells from Remington, Federal, or Winchester. , Not Gun Clubs, Estates, and so on, not 8's, and very, very definitely not reloads.

    I can"t see how a shooter can count holes with patterns made by IM and tighter chokes because there's no way to tell how many went through the hole. Nor, of course, can I possibly imagine why anyone would want to find out any of this "percent high" mumbo-jumbo when he know's where it really shoots in inches high.

    Neil
     
  8. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Neil, would you care to address what difference it makes for those of us who shoot an unsingle? in your treatise, you say to just multiply by three to get how high it shoots at 40 yards.

    Does that hold true for both top singles as well as unsingles, or is there an adjustment to the formula for an unsingle?
     
  9. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Timb99, it really depends on how accurate you want to be. If close enough (as in within 2" or so) is good enough, yes for MX-15 and MX-2000 unsingles. For anything with a rib higher than that, you will be off. IMO, to eliminate such problems, it is better to shoot for POI at half the distance you care about and just double. It minimizes errors. At 15 yards for singles and 20 for handicap, you can still clearly determine the center of the pattern. If you use a grease plate it's even easier.
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Timb, while it is true that in the "general" section I say the 3x will probably do just fine (especially since I think that the number you get will be of little use even if it is exactly right,) there is more at the end way down at Section Five which lets moths out every time I click on it.

    "Miscellaneous Topic 2:

    Calculating 40-yard POI from 13-yard data, special cases."

    Special cases are are all there - unsingles are such a case.

    Shooting from half the distance will lead to smaller errors, which is not exactly the same as "minimize" since "minimize" means "make as small as possible" and it's the information I provided in the cited Miscellaneous Topic 2 chapter that does that. What shooting a half the distance does is reduce the error, which if OK with me either way, since I don't think any of that has to be done anyway.

    If your gun shoots low at 13 yards, fix that

    If it shoots flat or an inch or two high, it may be OK for you.

    If it shots twice that high it's a "high shooter" and it may suit you but I'd try something lower if I were you. Just in case or certainly if you are having trouble scoring well with it.

    Anything else, you are on your own.

    Frankly, I think that covers it and we didn't calculate anything.

    Neil
     
  11. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Proof is in the smoke. I went from 1 inch high at 12 yards to 1 inch low and I'm getting much better smoke from the 16 yard line. It was quite dramatic. I was actually afraid to go below even until Neil said something in another thread about the bore center line crossing the sight line at a greater angle than for most guns. Tried two inches low but didn't like it as I felt I had to move through straight-aways so much to get smoke, it just wasn't right.

    Note the top of my 'rib' is 3 inches above the center of the bore. I don't know how that compares to unsingles because I've never measured one. There are some pretty darn high ribs on unsingles.

    Here's my gun.
    [​IMG]
     
  12. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Joe, 3" above the bore is quite high, and more than high enough that you don't dare extrapolate to 40 yards from 13 yard POI. Shooting "low" at 13 or 12 yards is EXACTLY what you need, unless you are going to shoot a really, really high POI.

    What adjustments do you make for handicap, if any?
     
  13. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Wow, "Miscellaneous topics Chapter 2" , "section five" and "Special cases for unsingles".

    "Calculations" and "13 measured yards, not 13 paces". Is this guy for real?

    Minimizing and extrapolation (triple word score).

    And no way to know what's going on 'til (Edit - Mr. Kuhn) makes smoke from 16 yards.

    Rube Goldberg couldn't have done it any better.

    GAP
     
  14. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Gapper - don't make fun of me.

    zzt - I need to work on yardage. I've never shot that well at yardage and I'm struggling at wobble which is 5 MPH faster than regular trap. 3 inches low at 12 yards would be dead flat. It goes up from there. I keep intending to check it at longer distances, but it's not that easy. I've considered shooting a bunch of times at the same piece of cardboard for an average (heh). What do you suggest? I'm not going to buy Dr Andrew's software. I scramble just to get time to shoot and have put off ATA until after the kids leave home. Don't feel I have the time to really do it right per Neil.
     
  15. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Joe, my point was that extrapolating 40 yard POI from 13 yard data (for your setup) was going to lead to rather large errors.

    You are doing it the right way- setting POI by what works on the field. Once you are getting the hits you want, THEN you go to the board and shoot for POI so you can record it. I don't care if that is 12, 13, 15 or whatever yardage, as long as it is consistent. That way, if you experiment with your settings, you can always go back to your baseline.

    BTW, 3" low isn't flat for your gun. 2" low is. You cannot ignore gravity.

    Dr. Jones' software isn't going to help you. You know your shell/choke combo works at 16. You are shooting a "flattish" shooting gun, and that is what you need for wobble. You just have to work on your leads. 5MPH doesn't sound like a lot of difference, but it is.

    For handicap, it is possible that you (like me) need a higher POI the farther back you go. I find that 2" higher @ 40 does the trick at 20-21, 4" higher @ 23-24 and 6" higher @ 27 does the trick. I tried the hold lower, swing faster technique for caps. It doesn't seem to work for me, but raising POI does.
     
  16. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Not making fun of you Joe Kuhn. Where do you get that?

    Even though your gun is different - it's not a Goldberg device. If you look up Goldberg device, you'll find an easy explanation of what's at work here, though I'm quite sure you already know it. GAP.
     
  17. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    zzt,

    I have a white plastic stick stuck in the ground at my distance of 12 yards. I put the end of my barrel there and fire away. I know it's 12 paces from the board in case somebody moves my stick. I can be consistent as you suggest.

    Correction: 3 inches low for me is 3 inches low at any yardage ignoring gravity. The point is it, at 3 inches low, it won't change as you increase the yardage except for gravity's effect. Anything above 3 inches low will give me an increasingly higher poi the further I move back. And I agree with you, it's important to look at gravity especially at yardage. The interesting thing about yardage after finding my best poi for 16s to be 1 inch low, is that I don't know which way to go. Should I raise my poi an inch or lower it? I'm thinking I want the same poi at target striking distance that I get when shooting 16s. With the effect of gravity, I'm thinking the first thing to try is to not change a thing. Moving back will raise it, but gravity will lower it. Net effect zero.

    There's a happy coincidence in my scope - one full turn moves the poi one full inch at 12 yards. So when I make a change I always make 1 full turn. That simplifies things.

    Wobble is work. I went back to shooting 16s after some wobble and caught myself overleading, so I think you are right about wobble needing the right lead. I've sensed that at the range is my point. It should just take some work. Another thing about wobble is that it's wobble - the targets change up and down as well as side to side. I have to really be sure I see that target before I move.

    Thanks for the helpful discussion.
     
  18. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    zzt - I think poi adjustments are very under utilized. There's a lady shooter at a club I visit who consistently breaks large pieces until she misses. She never gets any smoke. If she changes just one thing - her poi, in the correct direction, she'll see a dramatic difference I'm sure. Unless of course she is shooting to one side or the other. She may have both problems but it's all poi.

    And my son said to me the other day - if I move the stock down on my shoulder a little, I do better. I've raised his comb so he doesn't have to move it down on his shoulder. We'll see how he does now. He's a brand new shooter.

    Later, Joe
     
  19. Hookedonshooting

    Hookedonshooting TS Member

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    Maybe im in the minority, but patterning you gun and counting pellets is over doing it. If you are clueless to where it shoots fine. But if you have an idea its silly, since its only giving you ONE piece of the puzzle. Over analyzing the data only screws with your head.

    Go to the range and ask the them to set the trap up to throw only straightaways. Stand on post 3. Shoot them and see where/how you are breaking them. Shoot at least 50. Keep track (or better have someone else document)of how the birds break. Are you knocking the bottems out? Clipping the left, or right? Smoking them? After 50, sit down and look at the data. If you are all over the place with your hits, poi is not your problem, its something else. HOPEFULLY your light hits, if its a higher #, are consistent. Then you start the plan on moving the comb relative to what you want the gun to do. Never believed shooting at something standing still is going to help you hit something thats flying 45 mph.
     
  20. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I was NOT ignoring gravity when I said 2" low @ 12 was the flat setting for your gun. You are effectively 1" higher than that- essentially a field gun setting. It works for you (and many others) at 16.

    For caps you should try raising your POI. Certainly gravity plays a small part, and more so as you move back. The big difference is in target presentation. The farther back you are, the faster the targets rise relative to you. That is why I need to raise my POI for handicap or games at the 27.

    Think of it as a simple geometry problem. Draw it out on a piece of paper if you like. Here is a visualization. You stand at the rear of the trap house and shoot targets. Everything is an almost straight going away target. Your gun movement is all horizontal. There is almost no vertical movement. Your vertical lead (and horizontal) is essentially zero whether you shoot the target 10 yards out or 20. Because you are standing so close to the launch point, the angle your bore makes with the trajectory of the bird is close to zero.

    Now start moving back. That angle becomes more than zero and you have to start leading. By the time you get back to the 16, you have determined you need a POI that is about 3-4" high @ 40 to give you smoke.

    The process continues as you continue to move back. You need more vertical lead on the straights and more horizontal and vertical lead on the angles. Both time of flight differences and the increased relative angles (especially for horizontal) as you go back require it.

    Since you are having problems with caps, try raising your POI by 1" at 12, or one full turn. That will make a meaningful difference at target range.

    BTW, raising your son's comb automatically lowers the pad on his shoulder. The effect is the same, but raising the comb gives you the same cheek weld.
     
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