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Pattern question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by jerry chipman, Jun 22, 2008.

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  1. jerry chipman

    jerry chipman Member

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    Setting up a new stock and patterning my gun, I shot from 16 yards to get an idea if the gun was shooting where I was looking, it does, so no problem with that, my question is at 16 yards my pattern is all above the point of aim (gun was shot in a gun vise) which is what I want, the question is how much higher might the pattern be at 32 yards or say 40 yards, or would it stay the same, a stupid question and I know could have back up and found out for myself, but the space was limited at the time. I'm sure shot speed has something to do with it. Jerry
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    As a rough guide, Jerry, but plenty close enough, assuming you have a pretty conventional gun: if you just multiply the distance above the POA the POI is which you got at 16 yards by two for singles, two and a half for handicap, you will be in the ballpark.

    Neil
     
  3. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    A question, how much above the POA was the bottom of the pattern? That measurement can make a difference in answering your ? also. If you shoot a high pattern anyway, at 40 yards, it's probably not enough to be concerned with. Hap
     
  4. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Jerry, try it again without the vice. When I stand and mount the gun as I would when calling for a bird, I shoot a bit higher than I do from a bench rest. The difference is enough to take into account.
     
  5. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    did a lot of patterning, per Neil W. instructions. What I found from bench shooting @16 32 40. draw a 30" circle with equal cross sections. placle a aiming dot at 6 O'clock. This will give you a good idear of where the shot charge is going. You can then count the pellet holes in each quadrant for your own enjoyment. What I found out. ok your aiming the gun with the sights at a set point and the pattern is going high. OK, is that where you are looking? I found it much easier to mount the gun with out looking at the sight at all. just focus on where you want to be looking when you pull the trigger. I have found this to work much better for me adjusting my PFS to shoot where I am looking. I caught my self many times mounting the gun different when trying to aim it. I dont know maybe I am wrong but once I started to play around with shooting where Im looking the mid sight became useless. If I set my stock to fig 8. it will not match where I am looking when a shoot, make any sense?
     
  6. jerry chipman

    jerry chipman Member

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    Thanks for the replies, I used the gun vise to assure myself that the gun was shooting straight with regards to my sight picture. As stated I do want all the pattern just above the front bead, but at 16 yards would the pattern continue to rise and I believe my question were answered. Thanks again! Jerry
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    zzt, is that difference you experience in sandbagging the gun and off-hand something your doing or ?

    My Sako 300 Win mag. shoots the same off sandbags as it does off-hand when the crosshair says it's right. Hap
     
  8. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Hap, because we are always moving a shotgun, or should be, POI will be inclusive of the movement from perceived POA to firing. I like to make a mark on the patterning sheet and then place the bead well below the mark and then move straight up vertically to the mark and fire as if I was trying to touch a target. The vertical move greatly eliminates horizontal movement giving you a faily good POI indication inclusive of gun movement during POA acquisition to firing.
     
  9. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    zzt:

    vice - a: moral depravity or corruption : wickedness b: a moral fault or failing c: a habitual and usually trivial defect or shortcoming : foible <suffered from the vice of curiosity>

    vise - any of various tools with two jaws for holding work that close usually by a screw, lever, or cam

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Remember the Doobie Brothers 1974 Album, "What Were Once Vices Are Now Habits"?
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    JB, when I lived in Ohio, I also used my shotgun with rifled slugs for deer hunting. Besides my slug guns, I also used my B 303 trap to take 7 deer with 7 single shots. When I sighted it in off hand, it grouped the same as it did off the sandbags when the crosshair said it was time to let it go.

    I do understand your point in firing on the move as that's the way clays are shot. I just don't understand why the difference when attempting to determine a POI off bags and offhand. The true POI should be the same as it is with my rifles. Moving the head or using an ill operating trigger will certainly change things also. That POI with a rifle or a shotgun is what it is, how you shoot offhand is something all together different. Hap
     
  11. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    timb99, point taken.

    Hap, same as I've described before. When I shoot my shotgun offhand, recoil acts differently than when I am scrunched over the gun on the bench. There is more rotation, so the gun prints a little higher. Same with different velocity loads. Offhand, Bunker loads print lower than my standard 1oz @ 1150fps loads do, by a little more than one rib notch.
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    JB, there's a very interesting result arising from the way you do it and it is in contrast to your recent 100% thread. When I get a chance I'll give my side of it which few will believe until they try it. But now I have to do other things; maybe in a couple of days, OK?

    Neil
     
  13. John Thompson

    John Thompson TS Member

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    A shot charge is no different than a single projectile. That is, it will impact the same height location twice, once on the way up and once on the way down. When discussing patterns with the top barrel tuners, they want to set up a pattern sheet at the yardage that they tune for, break the target at, and shoot 5 shots, from a rest, to get the avg. Different ammunition will have differing points of impact. Use the same 5 shells in each test. If you shoot 3 dram at handicap use those loads for handicap.
     
  14. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    I'll look forward to it, Neil. While this stuff is intellectually stimulating, I will admit that my basic shooting philosophy is that I'm throwing a pattern out there the size of a trash can, and I know it needs to be above and in front of the target, so it should be a lot harder to miss the target than hit it.

    The Bomber and I will be shooting the CA State Class Singles tomorrow, so it'll be fun to see how the trash can does.
     
  15. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    When I shoot at a patterning board I sure feel more comfortable with my left eye closed. I can not tell if my front bead is just under or 8 inches over a Handicap target with both eyes open. Do any of you "Normal 2 eyed shooters" have this problem with a semi-transparent barrel/bead or is the rib always "solid" even when both eyes are converging on the distant target?? My POI is about 9" high at 40 yards.
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    When I shoot a pattern on paper, I carefully aim the gun using the front sight. When I shoot on the line, my front sight is only visible as a faint blur that I do not see and my eyes are focused on the target. These two different styles of shooting will give different point of impacts using both a shotgun and a rifle.

    See what happens if you shoot a rifle by glancing through the sights and then only focus on the target. Determining the POI of a shotgun is to see where the gun shoots. That may, or may not be related to where you shoot the gun.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. Haskins Bill

    Haskins Bill TS Member

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    Hap: I am sorry to have to diagree with you. Shooting a rifle be it with iron sights or scope has no relation to shotguning. Your rifle sighted in with a scope I could pick it up and shoot the same scores as you. As you know in shot guning the rear sight is the eye and our two slightly different holds will result in different POI maybe not much but a difference. Now then I knew a fellow years ago that had a Berrteta something or another and he was a hell of a shot on ducks and geese but whhen it came to turkeys he could not get it to pattern the way he wanted. Well to make a long story short he was pointing at ducks and trying to aim down the top of the receiver at turkey targets! Had a hell of a time convincing him he was doing it wrong and to just mount the gun like at ducks and point the thing. That is with no add on sights of red dots or scopes just the two beads. Reloader: If your shotgun is shooting 'high' just float the bird above the bead and shoot. Isn't that what we want in trap to be abel to see the bird if we are using a shot gun that is set up for trap versus a field gun? Don't mean to upset anyone but jeez don't make it too complicated there are fifty other things that can go wrong on a given shot. J Brooks said it all the pattern is the size of a trash can at range. Bill
     
  18. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Haskins, isn't it a fair statement to say shooting a scoped set-up slug shotgun is very similar to rifle shooting? I think it is. Also, have you ever heard the term, shotgunning a running target with a rifle? What in the world does that mean? It's fairly easy to figure that out when shooting running card board cut-outs on a motor powered cable with a scoped rifle.

    If a shooter has a drastically different result from sandbagging a shotgun for POI, one or the other says something is wrong. Why sandbag for POI in the first place if that's true?

    You are right about being able to shoot (most) scoped rifles and score the same but not in every instance. You probably couldn't shoot mine unless you have very high cheek bones. That depends on the comb hight of the rifle and how high the scope is off the bore centerline, same thing with a shotguns comb measurement off the rib or bore centerline.

    JBrooks is right, patterns the size of trash can lids is what it is with the same hold, eye position. Hap
     
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