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Pattern 1" left at 15 yds.

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by droptine, Jul 31, 2008.

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  1. droptine

    droptine TS Member

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    Pattern 1

    I have been switching back and forth between a TM-1 and a TMX lately trying to decide which one I shoot better. Today I decided to pattern them just out curiosity. What I found is no matter what I do, the TM-1 shoots about one inch left at 15 yds. every time. I shot it from a rest using a lead sled. I shot it rest across the back of a lawn chair to steady it and I shot it standing just as if I was shooting trap. Left, left, left. The TMX shoots fine...centered like it should.
    I kind of wish I had never done this, because I was actually leaning towards the TM-1. Neither gun is choke tubed. What would you do? Can having it choke tubed solve the problem. I have only patterned a few guns; is it very common to have one shoot off-center?

    thanks, Eric
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Pattern 1

    Eric- First, I would retest the gun with 10 shots from a solid bench. I like 13 yards but 15 is OK. Be very certain that the gun is shooting to the left and it is not you that is shooting the gun to the left.

    It is not unusual to test 25 guns and find one that will shoot a little to the left or right. With one model from a popular manufacturer, you would discover about 25% of the guns shooting a little to the left or right. One inch left at 13 yards would be 3 inches left at 40 yards (typical handicap distance). This would probably have little effect on your score.

    If your gun actually shoots left and this concerns you a barrel job by Tom Wilkinson might be in order.

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Pattern 1

    I had the same problem but my gun has a choke tube in it. A quick change of chokes and the problem went away. I did try moving the comb to the right before changing chokes, but then the gun bit me in the face. I added some pitch (positive) and that fixed the cheek slap pretty well, but not completely. Then the beads didn't line up perfectly. In the end changing chokes worked fine.

    Good luck.

    Joe
     
  4. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Pattern 1

    You can sometimes move the comb mount-point slightly right with moleskin. You have to wrap a couple of layers starting right at the top of the comb, and go to the side away from your cheek. Follow with a layer that covers the entire comb. This will also raise the comb slighly, but you should be able to get 1/16" cast off with this, to be able to test and see if you can center the pattern.

    Danny
     
  5. washandwear

    washandwear Member

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    Pattern 1

    Hi

    Adjustable comb moved left or right depending on rather you are a righty or lefty might do the trick.
     
  6. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    Pattern 1

    I have the same problem with my XT, though it is shooting 4 to 6 inches to the left at 39 yards. I first tried the POI testing at 13 yds but wasn't paying close enough attention to my results until I went to the patterning board at 37yds and saw the obvious problem.

    I suggest you re-test POI at 13 instead of 15. Two yards will give you a denser pattern and hopefully a solid round hole to measure to. You need to use a bench rest and be sitting comfortably. I go to an indoor pistol range that has graduations painted on the wall, a bench for the line and a chair to sit in. Measure your targets carefully and shoot a minimum of 10 targets but like Pat says, it takes about 25 to really get a feel for where the gun is shooting. One caveat, if you shoot 10 targets and they are all printing in nearly the same place, I think you have your answer.

    Personally, I do NOT like to misalign my sights in order for my gun to shoot straight or to shoot where I look. Though true, you will eventually get used to it what happens when you change guns? Learn a new technique of sight alignment to get it to shoot straight? I want the gun to shoot straight with the beads aligned figure 8 style, and will use the adjustable comb for height. You may in fact have to send it to a barrel specialist to measure and correct the problem but at least you will end up with a gun that shoots straight and "where you look".

    I think you are going down the right path by POI and pattern testing your gun. It is the only way to have confidence in your equipment so you can concentrate fully on your style. I also think you will waste less ammunition in doing it this way.

    Mike
     
  7. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Pattern 1

    Assuming you want to keep the gun, here is what I would do. Pattern the TM1 at 34 and 40 yards with your loads, 34 with singles load and 40 with handicap load. If you are happy with the results, you have two relatively inexpensive options- stock bending with a hot oil process ($150) that requires no refinishing, or an adjustable comb ($165). An adjustable comb will have to be offset to the left by almost 5/32". That is a small amount, but may feel weird if you are a right hand shooter. Or, just add mole skin or pad as suggested above. I can recommend Greg Hissem for the adjustable comb. I like his work, and he completes it on time and on budget.

    If you don't like the patterns you are now getting, or you don't like the aesthetics of mole skin or an adjustable comb, then send your barrel to a good barrel smith as Pat suggests. I've had barrels done by Wilkinson ($400/bore) and Allor ($350/bore). Both do excellent work. I wouldn't turn down a barrel by either. Wilkinson's forcing cone work invariably results in a softer shooting gun. Allor's barrel finish is vastly superior, and what he does for pellet distribution is effective.

    The one thing I wouldn't do is shoot it the way it is. 3" off center at handicap ranges is WAY more than I'd tolerate.
     
  8. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    Pattern 1

    Many great suggestions so far. You may consider having a friend along with you to pattern the errant gun...sometimes - it is very subtle - your firing technique can be moving the gun ever so slightly. This may mean a change in trigger pull, etc. If it still patterns incorrectly, by all means try the suggestions above. Best Regards, Ed
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Pattern 1

    Adjustments to the stock will not cause the gun to shoot to the right or left unless these adjustments also keep you from looking straight down the rib.

    If one does alter the cast off in a manner that prevents looking straight down the rib, the gun can be adjusted to shoot to the left at something like 0-30 yards, centered at 30-35 yards and to the right past 35 yards. I would think that this is highly undesirable.

    Move the comb to make the gun shoot higher or lower, but changing the POI to the right or left requires changing the barrel.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    Pattern 1

    Maybe the bbl is slightly bent between the beads. Sticking a cut-off 20ga hull in the muzzle and looking at the light rings can tell you this. A barrel off by .010" can be seen.

    If it's not bent, a little bump to the right may help as well.
     
  11. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Pattern 1

    Pat,

    I agree with your last point some. But if the gun was shooting slightly right, then adding moleskin to the left side of the comb (for a right handed shooter) would move the POI left, given the same locked-in mount. The beads, if they lined up before the moleskin, would not line up after the moleskin, and might or might not be shootable like this. But it would help determine whether the cast on or cast off can be adjusted for such a small difference.

    With the gun shooting left, it's much harder to adjust on a temporary basis.

    Most stocks can be shaved slightly where they meet the receiver to provide additional cast off, especially when you only need 1/16" or 1/8".

    Tell me where I'm wrong, I'm eager to learn.

    By the way, when I did POI and pattern on my 391, I had the following problem with bead alignment. I have good far vision, but am nearsighted and need reading glasses. With my shooting glasses, I can't tell if the beads are really lined up. I have to put on reading glasses to mount and make sure the beads are lined. Then I try to duplicate that mount with the shooting glasses on. Don't even get me started about trying to center the front bead on a damned cross drawn on paper at 30 yards. Sheesh.

    Danny
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Pattern 1

    Eric, a inch to the side at our distance is at the very limit of what I personally accept - and I'd never buy one like that if I knew it beforehand, which I seldom do which means I've bought plenty.

    The fact that the TMX shoots straight (and this one doesn't) tell me your technique is OK, one gun shoot left. You can always bend a TM-1 to shoot where you want. But if you buy it, that's what you are going to end up doing - or selling it, of course.

    What you are looking at is 60/40 left, and if you think that there's a difference, for example, between 50/50 and 60/40 vertically, you have to conclude that it's no different horizontally.

    And yes, it happens all the time.

    Neil
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Pattern 1

    Eric, I even take my own advice. I've been driven over the edge in handicap and just can't hit anything with the guns I've been shooting. So I took the pristine 33000 Ithaca Perazzi (the (numerically) overchoked one from a pattern test I put here a while ago) out of my safe, put an OK stock in it, and went to the pattern board. My notebook said it shot about an inch left, and today's testing said an inch, maybe a bit more left.

    I'd forgotten my bending jig in the garage and the old tree with a hole bored in it to thread a chain to secure a gate was gone as well. So what to use, what to use . . . ?

    And there it was! A forked tree, plenty strong and giving a range of lever arms from wide to narrow. Low to the ground so I had to kneel, but otherwise perfect.

    I bent it right too far, inched it back, and ended up with dead straight and two inches high. Shot 8 boxes from the 27 and figure I have something that might work. Retest showed no change, even though those eight boxes of 3-dram heated the barrel up way too hot to touch.

    That worked so well I nudged my old TM-1 back left from an inch to the right. Down a bit too. Grand American here I come!

    So I offer this formula:

    one off-shooting gun + a forked tree + a certain amount of courage and experience = a better gun.

    Neil
     
  14. droptine

    droptine TS Member

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    Pattern 1

    Thankyou to everyone for the many ideas. I shot it again today at 13 yards and it obviously shoots left. I don't think it is a flawed trigger pull as my best group out of my .223 at 100 yds. is .24". I don't think I can yank a shotgun left an inch out of a rest at 13 yds. ten times in a row. It does have an adjustable comb that I have moved to the right about 1/4". (I'm right handed.)
    My son and I are making our first trip to the Grand this year so I think I'll look up one of the "barrel pros" you mentioned while I'm there. Heck, most of the targets I miss are left...maybe the built in left lead of this TM-1 is just what I've been looking for.

    Thanks, Eric
     
  15. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    Pattern 1

    Considering you're working with a 20 inch "hot core", 3 inches off center (left) puts 13" to the left of POA & only 7" to the right of POA at 40 yds. That's ruff'ly twice as much killing pattern on the left side as on the right..........unacceptable in a Trap gun, IMO.

    John c. Saubak
     
  16. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Pattern 1

    I get such a kick out of reading these kind of posts by Neil Winston. Here is a guy who can afford the finest trap guns and resources on the planet. But yet, here he is, out at the range with an old Perazzi stuck in a tree fork bending the barrel. It just shows there ain't no magic.
     
  17. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    Pattern 1

    Danny, PM me I got some good info on seeing your beads.

    Lou
     
  18. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Pattern 1

    Neil, I'm now impressed as you finally bent a barrel like us ole country boys. Bought time you got down of your perch...
     
  19. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

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    Pattern 1

    Pat Ireland,

    A couple of weeks ago, someone had a gun that was shooting 1.5" left at 13 yards. I replied that, in effect, it wouldn't make much difference in actual shooting performance. You disagreed by saying that this alignment error might cost him 10% of his effective pattern.

    Yet in this thread, a shooter has a gun that shoots 1" left at 15 yards and you say that it will "have little effect on his score".

    I just wonder where, in your opinion, the dividing line is between "having little effect" and having a noticeable effect? I guess it must be somewhere between 1" and 1.5" at 13 to 15 yards? Perhaps 1.2"?

    Easystreet
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Pattern 1

    The question is actually how many targets would be lost by moving the pattern 10% to the left or any other direction. Can we really tell a difference between a gun that shoots 60/40 and a gun that shoots 70/30?

    Personally, I would correct a gun that shoots 1 inch left at 13 yards, but I am not sure that it is all that important.

    Pat Ireland
     
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