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Ownership Questions

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by hmb, Oct 27, 2007.

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  1. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Question #1. You are a dues paying member at a local club. You shoot a round of trap. Who does the lead shot you used to break the targets belong to, you or the club?

    Question #2. You are a dues paying member at a local club. You are an archer. You shoot an arrow in the air and where it landed you know not where. Who does the arrow belong to, you or the club?

    All answers will be keep confidential, Thank you. HMB
     
  2. Gargoyle!

    Gargoyle! TS Member

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    Your trying to split hair now.
     
  3. tj303

    tj303 Member

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    I don't want to own the lead after it leaves the gun barrel because then I would be responsible for cleaning it up if the enviromental police ordered it cleaned up. Do you want the enviromentalists to go after every ATA member who ever shot at Vandalia?
     
  4. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The EPA says that if you pick it up it is not considered hazardous waste. HMB
     
  5. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Since lead is approaching $2.00 a pound, why would you have to pay for the cleanup? I think you should be able to make a few dollars on the deal. HMB
     
  6. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    HMB...it is not confidential if it is on the web for everyone to see. Either you are trying to warn us of a possible future problem with the anti-gun community, or the anti-gun community will read this and take their lawsuits in a new direction. If it is the former, and you are a concerned shooter who is kicking around possibilities at the club, you may want to keep your cards closer to your chest.
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    hmb- You have actually raised an interesting question. The following is my opinion, but I am not a lawyer. Your question involves Real Estate law. When the shot strikes the ground, it becomes part of the real estate and ceases to become personal property through accretion. You can, at a later time and with permission of the land owner, remove the shot (severance) and it will again become personal property and not real estate.

    Your question about the arrow is more complicated, at least to me. I do not believe an arrow stuck in the ground that someone else owns ever becomes part of the real estate. I would consider the arrow to be "fructus industrials". If you have an apple tree, full of nice big apples, on your land and you sell the land to me, the tree becomes mine because it is part of the land (fructus nateralus), but the apples on the tree are personal property (fructus industrials) and you may legally pick them before I take possession of the land. The tree would be mine and the apples are yours.

    I like questions that make us think. Thanks hmb. You have given me something to think about all day long.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. Gargoyle!

    Gargoyle! TS Member

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    Having the EPA come after shooters is like the EPA going after everyone with a car because there are oil spots on the highway.
     
  9. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    What is your expectations of recovering lead left on the grounds? None...

    You do have expectations of recovering an arrow.

    During a registered shoot, shells hitting the ground may become property of the club depending on club policy (usually seen at skeet shoots), but in practice you may be required to pick up your hulls...
     
  10. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    You may throw out all of the legal arguments you want, but that doesn't stop someone from suing every club member. There is nothing to stop frivolous law suits.

    There is also nothing that guarantees that a very good lawyer would not find some type of legal loophole to set a precedence. Homeowners in a large, wealthy neighborhood, or a local anti-gun lobby, would probably be able to raise the money that it takes to hire the best. Take a look at the houses, for instance, around the Silver Dollar. How much $$ do you think those homeowners could muster up for a lawsuit?

    This type of thing has happened to us in the horse industry in Maryland. The homeowners tied the horse owners up for a good long while.
     
  11. FarmerD

    FarmerD TS Member

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    Mr. Ireland, you really need to get a life. LOL FD
     
  12. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    This a perfect example of why this country is doomed.

    Common sense is sorely lacking and we live in fear of bullshit lawsuits filed by leaches on society.

    I fear that in time we will be totally oppressed. Then, a few "rebels" will see anarchy as the only solution.

    I will be dead - still; I find it sad and frustrating to see such a dismal future.

    Don
     
  13. Inspector 12

    Inspector 12 TS Member

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    "the shot must be recovered.. Depending on who does what testing.. some idiot could call the land unfit"

    As Devi says, this is a double edged topic in that as it gets discussed it could give folks ideas they haven't previously thought of..

    Kerry
     
  14. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Lead (the metal) occurs naturally in many places in the world. There is no alarm about this.

    Lead becomes hazardous when it is chemically changed, as in paint additive, or in tetraethyl lead antiknock compound which went into the automotive emissions for so long.

    This should not be a point of argument in any legal discussion. A lot of the so called "common knowledge" about such subjects is largely based on conjucture, and becomes established as apparent fact through constant repeating(some of it hysterical).

    Any gun club is taking it in the shorts if they have the lead removed and don't make a bundle on it in todays market.

    Or club has mined 3 times in the last 15 years, and profited handsomely, sharing with the miner.

    Our shot falls in water. The 20 year old shot that came out on the first mining was not deteriorated in the slightest other than a coating of silt and a miniscule amount of oxidization. I have shot much of it back into the lake.

    Yes, someone calling the land unfit would surely be an idiot. But he may be a persuasive idiot and cause a lot of trouble.

    If you reclaim the lead periodically you are showing good faith and environmental conscience.

    It would be better to keep the lawyers out of it if possible.

    HM
     
  15. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Some unexpected answers to the original questions. My purpose in asking the questions was prompted by the recent action taken by the board of directors of one of the clubs I belong to.

    They banned the reclaiming of lead by members on club property. That is when ownership of the lead came to mind. Is shooting like making a deposit in a bank account? Can a depositor make a withdrawal if he so chooses? Or does the lead become the property of the club? Does a club member have a vested interest? Is he limited to retreiving only the lead he deposited?

    Food for thought. But be careful, ingesting lead is the number one way you get lead poisoning. HMB
     
  16. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    Just for the record;

    I hereby transfer any interest I may have in the ownership of lead shot that I have deposited on the numerous trap ranges I have shot at over the years to the club/shoot management or other entity responsible for the shooting range where I deposited the aforementioned lead shot.

    John C. Saubak
     
  17. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    John,

    Lead is approaching $2.00 a lb., can you give us a dollar amount on the amount of your deposits over the years. HMB
     
  18. Jerbear

    Jerbear TS Member

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    I am a dues paying member at two clubs, one is MultiLakes Conservation Association and if they mine the lead and keep the money good for them. Quite frankly at this day in age, with gun clubs closing we need as much money in the till as possible. As of Jan.1 we are opening on Saturdays for all shooting disciplines. We on shoot now on Tuesday night, Thursday night and Sundays. People go to church and football cames on Sunday, so we decided to open on both weekend days. Cash flow is at a premium right now and the volunteers for the weekends with help alot myself included.

    The other club, Birmingham Gun Club is a managed club with someone there on Wednesdays,Saturdays and Sundays. They have their staff run it and well I might add.


    Jerbear
     
  19. Bvr Tail

    Bvr Tail Well-Known Member

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    hmb,

    I see where you are coming from with the lead. The reference to the arrow threw me!

    It immediately brought to mind an experience I had once.

    While hunting on private farm ground and woods, the owner approached with a bent and twisted arrow. He asked if it was mine. I showed him my personal arrows, and asked why?

    He said it was out in his bean field and his combine picked it up. It was stuck in there somewhere, and he was trying to find where it came from.

    I always wondered where it came from also since this was pretty isolated ground.

    The next season, as I parked in his barn lot, he approached again and said he had stopped all hunting and trapping on his property. This shocked me since we had been going there for a few years. He explained his young son was running beans late one night, and ingested a dead dear into the combine. He was really upset.

    I guess I understand.

    Danny
     
  20. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Just checking to see if all sportsmen are being treated equally, Danny. HMB
     
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