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OVERTURNING SCORER'S CALL

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by gdbabin, Jul 14, 2008.

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  1. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    This past weekend a discussion ensued at the WVA State shoot on the "rules" surrounding the overturn of a scorer's call of Lost if squad members declare they saw a chip fly.

    The gist was that it took three squad mates to overturn the lost call; others thought it took only two.

    We tried to find the rule in the official ATA Rules/By Laws book to no avail. A veteran we were talking with was virtually certain the rule used to be in the book.

    Can anyone enlighten?

    Thanks,

    Guy Babin
     
  2. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the scorer has final say. you of course may complain to shoot management for relief....


    SECTION VII
    OFFICIAL SCORING
    A. PROCEDURE
    1. The official score is the record kept by the referee/scorer on a sheet furnished him/her by shoot management. The referee/scorer’s decision on whether a target is dead or lost is final, subject to review only by
    the shoot committee or other governing body. The score sheet shall show the scores earned in the event or sub-event. The score sheet shall not be smaller than 11 inches by 17 inches (for four sub-event score sheets) in any tournament in which ATA trophies are provided.
    The larger format score sheet is recommended for all tournaments.
    During Handicap events the first sub-event of each score sheet shall be annotated with the yardage assignment of each contestant.
     
  3. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    No such rule.

    Scorer has final call.
     
  4. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    In the PITA rule book, a scorer's call of 'lost' may be overruled if two people on the squad other than the shooter confirm that they saw a broken target. On a short squad of two shooters, a line judge is required to observe the shooting for that purpose.

    I can't find a similar rule for ATA but you would think there is a method for challenging a lost bird call.
     
  5. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Entirely up to the scorer.

    Don
     
  6. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    Granted the above, that's how we read the book as well. It is however relative common place, at least in my limited experience for others on the squad to announce they saw a chip and the score was altered to reflect.

    Guy
     
  7. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    gdbabin:

    Your issue was discussed in a thread titled MARKERS JOB ? dated July 11th.

    The Reader's Digest (condensed) version goes like this...

    Section VII, part A of the current ATA rule book states in part, "The referee/scorer's decision on whether a target is dead or lost is final, subject to review only by the shoot committee or other governing body."

    Squad members don't get to vote and they can't overturn a scorer's decision even if they agree unanymously that a call was incorrect. The final decision rests with the scorer unless his/her decision is overruled by the designated shoot authorities.

    sissy
     
  8. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    Guy:

    IMHO, shooters are honor bound to bring scoring errors to the attention of a scorer when an erroneous call is made. That is true whether the correction goes in favor of or against a shooter.

    As a practical matter, it is a rare scorer that won't reconsider when several members of a squad immediately challenge a dead or lost call. However... the fact is, the scorer's decision is final.

    sissy
     
  9. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    Understood.

    There are many times when I thought I was correct about something in life only to be overturned by the majority.


    A wise person (scorer) learns that while they may have the final say, they don't always singularly have the correct answer.


    It seems the older I get the less sure I am about absolutes.


    The individual involved insisted the Lost call she got from the scorer should stand because 2 instead of 3 on the squad saw a chip. While she was confused about the rules, her integrity was intact.


    Guy
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Score keepers the caliber of Jim Brown(The Puller)are scarce. He knows the rule book very well and I'd take his word on all calls he made even if I was in management. Most scorekeepers know only how to make Xs and 0s on the score sheet. People keeping score can make mistakes with small pieces broken from clays and this should be spelled out more clear in the rules how it should be corrected. Instant re-play would be nice? Hap
     
  11. slide action

    slide action Well-Known Member

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    This has been hashed out many times. BigM-perazzi has it correct. He lays out the rules as they are. The rules are NOT subject to an opinion, even if it is shared by more than one person.Name me ANY sporting event where the competitors get to over ride the referee! While in MOST cases a puller will give the shooter the nod, he/she is NOT bound to under the rules. I HAVE seen squads where some BUDS were shooting together calling everything that flew! At the 2005 GAH I shot a 98. Two shooters claimed they saw a piece off of one, but the scorer refused to change it. At any rate I had already missed one so the dream of winning the Big One was gone by that time anyway. I wound up with 19th place after a long shoot off and was happy. I have no ax to grind in the matter. It was legally HER call! If there was a chip, the target certainly was not hit with any authority or there would have been no debate in the first place. The rules are what they are.
     
  12. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    If you challenge the scorers call you have to go to the video replay of the shot for confirmation. Only then can the correct call be made. HMB
     
  13. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    guy, I don't remember it ever being in the ATA rule book that if two or three shooters on a squad saw a piece off a target called lost by scorer that it could be overturned. It has I believe been a common occurence since I have been involved and I don't recall one puller through my limited years in the sport that would not change their call if two or three of the squad spoke up regardless if the call should be changed to either dead or lost.

    I now unenderstand who this involved and I will try to explain it to her. Maybe I made to big_of_deal out of playing the game honorably to the letter along with her own conviction to such.
     
  14. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    Sunday at the Indiana State One guy on my squad got a 26 on a trap .
     
  15. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Alf, at the Mich St shoot, our 3 man squad had 3 scores of 23 and 1 score of 22....
     
  16. Too Bad

    Too Bad TS Member

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    Hap if you allow the scorer to make the call, inspite of the squads opinion you will be accused of using the "rules to your advantage".

    Richard
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    We can question a scorers call, the scorer may become convinced that the wrong call was made, but we cannot over rule the scorers call.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. sammyd95

    sammyd95 TS Member

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    back in the day when we used to set and pull,along with keeping score it was the puller/scorer's discretion,though i have seen a number of big name shooters stick up for eachother on the same squad,and the score keeper would change it to a dead bird.thats why they get on the same squad all the time!
     
  19. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    Hillbilly, It wasn't someone I've ever shot with.

    Guy
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Years ago several of us were watching a couple of well known shooters from Ca. breaking clays. A totally new scorekeeper was calling the wad close to a target a dead bird! Neither shooter did the right thing as the final score won the event for one and placed the other right up there also. Management and a line ref was notified and NOTHING was done by either! Like I said above, an instant re-play is needed at times. I will say that most of the top shooters thankfully won't allow that to take place on their squads!

    Richard, I usually ask the scorekeeper what they saw to make their call first, then the squad members. Some guys don't watch other's targets at all. Hap
     
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