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Over-Choked ????

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by ec90t, Jun 16, 2008.

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  1. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    I picked up a set of trap O/U's for one of my Beretta's a while back. They looked to be a nice set of 32" fixed choke barrels. On day I was measuring the back-bore on these barrels to see how true they were. Low and behold, pulling the bore guage through the choke section on the bottom barrel it measured .012" restriction. I had to check out the bore on another gun to verify what I was reading ( I knew exactly what it was). The top barrel is at .030" restriction. These barrels should have been in th .028" and .038" area.

    My question is, The bottom barrel breaks targets hard from the 25-27 yd line with a standard 3 dram 1 1/8 oz shell. From the 16yd line it will absolutely turn targets into dust.

    I'm in a quandry as to whether I should return the barrels (bought from a reputable dealer and thought that they were untouched other than some forcing cone work), or just shoot them and forget about them being rechoked.

    For those skeptic's that think this is some sort of haux, I'll gladly let you shoot the gun and provide you with a bore guage.

    ec90t
     
  2. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    That's the funny part Ajax. I went out shooting tonight knowing full well that the bottom barrel was lightly choked and used it just as if it was choked normal. The only call birds that I missed (3) was all because I shot over them.

    I really wanted these barrels to pull double duty (Trap and Bunker). I'm just afraid that the bottom barrel is a little to open for 24 gram loads.

    ec90t
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    ec90t- You indicated that the lightly choked barrel did preform well from the 27 yard line and that does require a good choke. I would recommend, as did Ajax, that you go to the pattern board. Over bored barrels can produce full choke results on paper.

    You mentioned that you have some concern about the usefulness of the bottom barrel fro bunker trap. Your confidence in the barrel may be more important than what the barrel actually does.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    ec90t, do a Pat suggests. A choke is as a choke does. What is marked on the tube or barrel, or the measured constriction often has nothing to do with performance.

    Patterning on paper will tell you all you need to know. If you get the PE you expect, you are good to go. If you find you have a hot core (unlikely with an overbored barrel) and a thin fringe, you can move to smaller pellets.

    Before I gave up on the barrel for Bunker, I'd pattern some factory Bunker loads in it. You will be surprised how tightly those 24g of #7 ( American 7 1/2) pattern from any choke. Also, in the US you are allowed to use 1oz and 1 1/8oz loads except for serious competition. So you can use your ATA loads if you want.

    I recently sent my barrels to Kerry Allor to have him work them. I told him to make the O/U into Bunker barrels that I would also use for ATA Singles and Doubles. They ended up with .740" bores and .024" and .032" chokes. He called me up the day he was to ship them and said they had been finished the day before, but there was a small problem with the U barrel using 3 1/4 dram loads. He slept on it, decided it really bothered him, and asked me what I wanted to do. He explained the problem and told me he could fix it by lengthening the parallel section. He also said that to get any bite he would have to take .002" metal off with the cutter. That would reduce the constriction to .020". I considered the options and told him to go ahead.

    The O/U barrels came back at .019" and .032". My expectation was they would be OK for occasional Singles and marginal for Bunker. After I got the POIs set up they way I wanted, the first load I used in the U barrel was 7/8oz #8 @ 1200fps for ATA Singles. I quite literally could not believe my eyes. The targets were vaporized. When I switched to the unsingle, there was no difference in results. If you were going by breaks only, you would not be able to tell which barrel was being used, the .019" U barrel or the .745"/.035" unsingle.

    So put your barrel on paper before you decide what to do. You may have a real gem on your hands. If the paper results back up your experience on the field, you mind will fall into line and you will have a gem you have confidence in. If not, you can decide to return it.
     
  5. John Thompson

    John Thompson TS Member

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    Constriction? I had an MX-8 with .012 on the bottom bbl that would ink spot 25 yd. targets. My TMX has .032 constriction and was done by Tom Seitz 25 yr.s ago. it ink spots 27 yd targets with light 7 1/2 s. I should say did, a gunsmith blued the gun and removed the choke tube. He replaced it with a tube that had .000 constriction and the total constriction is now .020. I shot the gun 2 years this way and never knew of the tube change. I dropped my avg. by 16 targets. Constriction matters, but not as much as performance.
     
  6. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

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    Like ZZT I gave my single barrel to Kerry Allor late last year. There was one goal in mind to make it put every pellet possible on my handicap targets. I also shoot singles with this barrel though. When I went to pick it up Kerry described to me what he had to do, my gun was now set at .036 constriction. I cringed a little and mumbled 16yd line. Well he told me I may miss a few in the beginning, until I get use to the tighter choke. My average last year was 97. I have shot this gun for 14 years and everything I knew up to this point went out the window when I shot the gun after work. Not only has my average not faltered by one target, it has gave me the insight as to shooing with more precision. From this point forward I will NEVER think "over choked" It is just too bad it took 14 years to learn this. I could not be happier at this point and look forward to giving Kerry my over-under barrel this fall.

    GS
     
  7. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    Pat & zzt,

    I may have been misleading a little for some reason in my original posting. The bores on both barrels are still .725". This is pretty nominal for the earlier Beretta's.

    I will have to go do a bit of pattern board work and see if the pattern is as good as what the breaks are telling me.

    I've always been a bit of a loose choke shooter anyway, but this is a new one for me.

    ec90t
     
  8. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Check the POI and then, judge the quality of breaks for yourself. The only person you have to satisfy with this barrel set is YOU.

    Sheer numbers mean little on chokes. That is the intriguing thing about shotgun shells, bores and chokes. It is NOT a numbers game. Often, less is more. LOL
     
  9. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    If the bottem barrel breaks targets hard from the 25-27 yd line & from 16 yds absolutely turns targets to dust.............why would you want to change it?

    John C. Saubak
     
  10. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    There is a club down the road a piece that has a wobble trap and a pattern board. I think I just might load up some 7/8 oz loads and go see how many I hit with it. That in conjunction with the patterning board might shed some light on how good this barrel shoots.

    I will try to take a photo or two and post my findings this weekend. This ought to be real interesting!

    ec90t
     
  11. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    Ajax,

    I got sidetracked a bit this weekend and never got around to it. I may go tomorrow evening and give it a try if time permits.

    ec90t
     
  12. johnpe

    johnpe Member

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    As an aside and a point of reference, for MANY years, Winchester turned out modified barrels with 0.008 to 0.012 inch constriction. I have three unaltered M21's with a modified barrel and they are all in that range. Improved Cylinder was 0.004-0.006 inches, Improved modified was 0.015-0.018 inches, and Full choke was 0.030-0.035 inches - assuming a 0.730 bore. My Winchester SX-1 Improved Cylinder has 0.006 inches of constriction, My newer SX-2 has choke tubes that measure 0.005, 0.011, and 0.033 for Improved Cylinder, Modified, and Full. It's obvious that they were still following their choke specifications when this gun was made. In an April 2000 article in one of the UK magazines that tested several of the 0.010 chokes (quarter choke) aftermarket tubes with a good quality of ammunition with hard shot. The highest patterning tube was the Briley X-2 at 71% - Full Choke!! Most of the others were above 60% (Modified) and most tested about at about Improved Modified (65%).

    So, it's not wrong to expect a good, reasonably high percentage pattern from only 0.010 inches of constriction. As others, above, have suggested, pattern your gun and find out what it does.
     
  13. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    Ok,

    I patterned the bottom barrel today and found it to have a very "hot" core and an erratic fringe. The center of the pattern is very nice using both 8's and 7 1/2's. The outer 10" ring is sparsly populated and would explain the chip hits at distance. The barrels continue to perform well at doubles and the occasional round of singles, but it is time to return them to the vendor I got them from. They are unsuitable for my intended purposes.

    ec90t
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    If someone here had counted some pellets and written the results this thread might have had some value. As it is it's just more talk, talk, talk; no data, no proof, actually no information.

    I'll be glad to expand on this if anyone wants . . .

    Neil
     
  15. MBB

    MBB TS Member

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    About measurements:

    Quantitative methods are the foundation of science. They represent a way of knowing the answers to very basic questions such as how big, how fast, how many, etc. The great British scientist Lord Kelvin (William Thomson, 1824-1907) noted, "If you can measure that of which you speak, and can express it by a number, you know something of your subject; but if you cannot measure it, your knowledge is meager and unsatisfactory."

    Blaine Baker
     
  16. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    Sorry Neil,

    I had better things to do then sit around counting pellet holes on 10 sheets of paper. There was hay to be put away! I just wanted to see the general pattern that this barrel through.

    I've seen enough of proper patterns to know what I was looking for, and that wasn't it. It is one heck of a doubles barrel though!

    ec90t
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    All I'm looking for, ec90t, is for someone to tell us what patterns from 7/8 oz loads - the ones you tested - are like. You cited "a very "hot" core and an erratic fringe" and decided to reject the barrel on that basis. What did the tighter barrel pattern like? Was it more even? Less even?

    Your result caught my eye because it is so unexpected. Not the fringe, that's pretty much the same across a lot of choke restrictions - it's the "hot core" part. Hot compared to what? Is it possible it just looked hot because the fringe, though representing a typical percentage, was weak because 7/8 loads have to be weak because of reduced pellet count?

    Reading many, many post about 7/8 oz loads I get the impression that people think they are tight, though in literally thousands of posts I can't recall a single example of counting pellets - the only way to judge whether these impressions are correct.

    Similarly, there are references to the success of barrel work but no data at all on how the same barrels shot before the work. How does anyone attribute the good shooting now to the work done? Isn't it possible that it's the same as it was before? Or worse? Almost all barrels shoot great right out of the box - why are these better? And how do you know?

    Neil
     
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