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OT WINDOWS XP OR VISTA???

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by whiz white, Jan 5, 2008.

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  1. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    I kinda felt that way initially, however, I kinda like Vista.

    I got my daughter a new laptop recently for law school and it came with Vista. If it wouldn't work correctly, she'd been on the phone immediately.

    I just built a big system running RAID, dual tripple drives, etc., to replace my aging single core system and it is running Vista. I thought I would have problems running some very specific printers, using both parallel and USB. Some are older label printers I used in my business. To date, I have had no troubles connecting a scanner of an oler vintage (I like it better than a couple of new ones here at the shop).

    I can say that it takes a small learning cureve, but I do like it.

    I do not believe I would do an XP to VISTA upgrade. It is just better to do virgin installs of Vista.

    IMHO.

    Whiz White
     
  2. Jerry944t

    Jerry944t Well-Known Member

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    I have a computer running Vista. I built it myself with premium parts. I installed Vista Home Premium on it and was delighted.....at first. It gradually deteriorated as I added my programs until I couldn't do anything without error messages or inconveniences.

    For instance I use Quicken 2004. It runs fine in Vista but won't back up to my hard drive. So I have a choice of buying the latest bloated version of Quicken or backing up to a flash drive. That's just an example of quirks that I've found. Another example is my scanner will not work with Vista. No drivers in the loop for it.

    I reformatted the hard drive(s) and reinstalled Vista. It's been 6 months now and it's starting to piss me off again. Another reformat in the future.

    For now I would go with XP. They have service pack 3 coming out shortly which is supposed to speed XP up considerably.

    I just don't think Vista is mature enough to really count on. I know of very few businesses that have migrated to Vista.

    If you want to take a chance get Vista as it does have some nice features. If you want a stable, no worry, operating system go with XP for now.

    Just one data point. Your mileage may vary.

    Jerry
     
  3. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    If you have a lot of programs that you have been using...good chance many of them will not work on Vista. That will require you to buy upgrades, or do without!

    If you have a choice, install XP pro! You can always move up to Vista later.
     
  4. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    What programs would that be, Ahab?
     
  5. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    One of the shortcoming of Vista is that many people will try to run it on systems that simply don't have the horsepower to make use of its capabilities. We've installed it on one of our office networks to try it and found that it wants at least 2 gigs of RAM and is happier with 2.5 gigs. Otherwise, it plods along like an old Commodore 64.

    Morgan
     
  6. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Vista is too full of bloatware, junkware and crippleware for me. It is designed with two goals in mind - to make Microjunk a lot more money than XP could have, and to protect third party copyrights even if it means disabling features desired by the end user. It's going to take a couple of service packs just to make it run right. And there is a serious problem with non-backwards compatibility with peripherals. It's taken Microjunk years to design this, yet they couldn't put the resources into it to make sure it would be fully backwards compatible? I also don't like the veiled blackmail implications and especially the attack on open source software and hardware. Bill Gates HATES anything open source, and wants it all to be rigidly controlled via a Microjunk certification process. This means a manufacturer of a board, or software, must certify their product with Microsoft. They pay money to certify it, and they keep paying money to keep it certified. So what are the implications? If the manufacturer goes out of business, or another company absorbs them and decides not to continue certification for the discontinued line, then Microjunk has the contractual right to instruct, via its automatic patches, to put the divice or software in question into a reduced performance mode. This is why I coined the phrase "crippleware". One other feature that has been mentioned on some software analyst blogs is that Vista contains the code to run what it thinks is bootleg media (ie unlicensed copies) in a reduced operating mode. It's supposed to "protect" third-party media providers, like record labels and Hollywood, from having their copyrighted material stolen. For example, if you had what Vista thinks is a bootleg Blue-Ray DVD, it would reduce the quality until it was worse than an ordinary DVD. Ditto for sound quality. The problem is, how can the software be so sure? And, supposedly, people who get media from out of their country "zone" would find it looks like crap. This is important for those who buy media from overseas that has not been released in the USA. (The grandaddy of this is the country zone on DVD's in computers. You can change the country zone, but if you do it more often than a certain aount, like three to six times, it will remain locked on the final setting, and NOTHING you do can override that.) Supposedly this "crippleware" feature has not been implemented yet, because it would tip Microjunk's hand and cause a lot of people to flee to Mac. It's just dormant, waiting to be put into operation.

    I said to hell with this noise, and bought three refurbished HP machines with XP (one for each kid and one for myself). At that time (last September) Dell refused to sell me a new machine with XP on it. Looks like they've changed that edict in the last month or so, probably because of lost sales.

    Also note that Microsoft is getting ready to discontinue support of XP. But has had to back off of that because of dissatisfaction with Vista, particularly by corporates who have the leverage to continue using XP. In fact, it would cost many corporates vast sums to embrace Vista, just from the standpoint of lack of backwards compatibility with common office peripherals. We tried Vista in my office, and found ZERO, ZIP, NADA of our printers, scanners or faxes would work with it. Some of these machines are only a couple of years old, and one costs more than a cheap import car.

    It's also significant that several magazines, some newspapers, and several respected computer blogs have labeled Vista as being in the top ten of the worst products of 2007. That's a major slap in the face to Microjunk. One even said, "With all the time and money it took to create Vista, this is the best Microsoft could do?" Several also noted that there has been a surge in Mac sales, and more advanced users are embracing Linux like never before.

    Vista may one day be OK for the average home user who runs the system pretty much "as-is". But for the more advanced user, it's a joke.

    Vista is a resource hog. This is what's meant by "bloatware". It's full of so much CRAP that isn't really needed that it sucks up large amounts of RAM. You cannot have too much RAM with Vista. This should be one of your first upgrades - maxing out the RAM.

    So, should YOU get Vista? If what I've written above does not apply to you, then sure. Particularly if you are purchasing new peripherals. But make darn sure if you have an older digital camera that direct connects to our computer that the company has a Vista driver available. In fact, it would be a wise decision to take inventory of all your peripherals and software and see how much of it is Vista compatible BEFORE you opt for Vista. That means going to the manufacturers website and checking into this. Or calling their tech support. You might be better off purchasing XP if you had to replace a significant amount of your gear.
     
  7. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Like Jerry, I built the machine I am typing this on from premium components and installed Vista. Unlike Jerry, I used Vista Business, not home premium. I believe that may be the reason I have had zero problems with it. I use specialized programs from several of the manufacturers I deal with. They tell me they have no problems when used on Vista Business, but many on computers running any of the Home versions. They specifically tell me the drivers are different on the two versions. Microsoft says no, so I don't know.

    Since I was building a new machine, it didn't make sense to pay for an old version of an OS, then, later, pay again for an upgrade. I fully expected to have to scrounge for drivers for some of the older peripherals I own. Not so. Vista installed and configured itself while I was getting a snack. When I returned, it had recognized everything and was running perfectly.

    If I were in your situation, I'd definitely buy a machine that has Vista installed, because you are certain to get a configuration that has the horsepower required. That may not be the case with an XP machine. BTW, look at alternatives to Dell. I really didn't like the last two I owned and switched to Sonys. Much better everything.
     
  8. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    We're admittedly bush-league home users, but I bought this new laptop for myself in November and my wife and I bought both of our kids laptops for Christmas. All run Vista Home Premium and so far, so good. But I made sure to buy machines with 2GB of RAM as I was told that running Vista on 1GB is like running XP on 512MB.

    I don't have any really old peripherals but everything I do have seems to be Vista-compatible. I'm still more comfortable with XP but our 26 year-old son, who embraces change more than me, has both a desktop on XP and his new laptop on Vista and likes both equally.

    Ed
     
  9. XTFreak

    XTFreak TS Member

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    I make my living as a software developer and have formed my own opinion towards Microsoft.

    I use XP and will continue to use it until the 2nd or 3rd service pack for Vista comes out.

    Microsoft has a nasty habit of releasing items to the public before they are truly ready. There are so many combinations of hardware and software nowdays, they cannot test for all of them and the end users become the testers.
     
  10. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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  11. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    XTFreak, quote: "....Microsoft has a nasty habit of releasing items to the public before they are truly ready. There are so many combinations of hardware and software nowdays, they cannot test for all of them and the end users become the testers."

    Amen to that.

    Reminds me of the government changing the power used in the M16 during the Vietnam War, essentially letting the troops combat test it. Doh!
     
  12. Texas Ton

    Texas Ton TS Member

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    Only problems I know of have been coming from Vista basic, get home premium at least, get rid of the trash you don't want, it runs fine and I really can't tell much difference between it and XP. Running two with premium and they are "blazin".

    That said, if I had to buy home premium, I'd go with XP.
     
  13. fritzi93

    fritzi93 TS Member

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    Link to a list of Vista compatible software above.

    Scroll down for a list of programs that are problematic on Vista. Last of all, programs known to NOT work on Vista.

    And yes, there have been some computers sold, at least initially, with Vista on them that were seriously underpowered.
     
  14. rcmax29

    rcmax29 TS Member

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    By all means, go with XP if you can. Takes a while for Dell to deliver, but worth the wait. Vista is still garbage.
     
  15. foghorn220

    foghorn220 Active Member

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    Jerry944T:

    I was going to get Vista also when I upgraded but decided to stay with XP Pro instead because I have a lot of old programs and don't want to buy new ones.

    I would vote to stay with XP until all the bugs are worked out and programs are cheaper also.

    Foghorn220
     
  16. Jerry944t

    Jerry944t Well-Known Member

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    Yeah Foggy, I think at this point XP is just more predictable. There are no unpleasant surprises with XP.

    If you are a computer hobbyist you are going to like fooling around with Vista but be prepared to do some interesting troubleshooting. I used to have hair until I installed Vista although at the moment it is running just fine. Experience tells me that won't last.

    For the everyday user who wants their computer to just work XP is still the best choice. I do know many people who are using Vista with no problems but their names are all "Lucky."

    Smash Em,

    Jerry
     
  17. Ken X

    Ken X TS Member

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    My son, who is a computer engineer, told me to look at some site where this was discussed ad infinitum by a bunch of computer hotshots. (I wish I could remember the site) The prevailing opinion was, that if you order a new computer from one of the big makers to order it with XP! They resisted at first and said they couldn't do it, but so many people insisted that it would make the sale, that the makers changed their mind and you can now get a new one that way.

    My son works in a bldg with over 100 other engineers and the prevailing opinion is that Vista is way too unstable and they would all stick with XP right now.
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    On the Vista vs Apple thread someone mentioned a company - the name starts with "L" I think - which offers custom laptops and I saw an interesting HP there with XP. Now I can't find the post on that thread. Does anyone remember?

    A second question. If I get a Vista Machine, can I buy XP Professional and load it in instead?

    Neil
     
  19. bobdog

    bobdog Active Member

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    I'm sure some of you experts out there will quibble with some of this, but here are a couple of things about new machines and Vista that you may or may not know.

    1. Office 2002 (also known as Office XP) will NOT install under Vista. Office 2003 will install, sometimes with a couple of error messages at the end. Microsoft clearly wants you to buy a Office 2007 (Office 2007 Professional, if you need it, is $550.00). Note that you can buy Office Pro 2007 in an Academic package from Viosoftware.com for $189.99 for home use if you have kids. Microsoft doesn't really check this and doesn't care much about the subject. If this works for you, I just saved you $250.00. Buy a case of shells or half a sack of shot or something.

    2. If you need to connect up to a Windows domain at work (not just a peer-to-peer) connection, you MUST be running Vista Business or better. None of the Home versions will "join" a Windows domain. Ever.

    3. Neil, this one's for you: If you're thinking you always have the option to just install XP if it doesn't work out, don't count on it. It may not be possible. Hardware drivers may not be available for your machine (particularly if it's a laptop). Don't assume you can do this yourself unless you know what you're doing, and plan for failure by installing a new hard drive so you can retreat if you have to. I had to this with a Gateway laptop, even after Gateway assured me that drivers were available, and it cost me an entire Sunday's worth of unbillable time. I returned the machine with its original hard drive reinstalled. It was a complete waste of time.

    3. If you need to upgrade to Business, read the fine print: a single step upgrade usually means a fresh install, including a reformat and the reinstallation of all of your software. An in-place upgrade typically requires a two step upgrade. The last time I did this, the upgrade cost was $260.00, which as far as I'm concerned is ridiculous.

    4. HP and presumably some others are putting suicide clauses in their support. Used to be you could get a driver for a four year old printer. "We don't have drivers for this printer and don't plan to develop them. Go buy a new printer."

    5. Quicken 2004? Forget it. Upgrade. Rule of thumb is if it's more than two years old, plan on buying an upgrade.

    6. Quickbooks 2006 or earlier? No support is available. Buy 2007 or 2008.

    7. Palm software? Free update is now available; e.g., Tungsten, but you must already have it installed before you upgrade if you want to synch with Outlook. If you're familiar with Palm software, the "conduits" for Outlook are not included, for some damn reason. See their website.

    8. RealVNC, UltraVNC and some VPN remote software doesn't work with Vista.

    9. PDFCreator doesn't work with Vista. DoPDF does. Both these programs allow you to "print" to an Adobe Acrobat PDF file. Google for them.

    10. Act! contact management software requires an upgrade to version 10 if you want to avoid problems. Most folks still use Act! 2000, which has problems with Vista. It's fine with XP.

    11. Turn off User Account Control as first order of business when you start up a Vista machine. It will drive you crazier than you already are. It's in Control Panel/User Accounts. Just turn the damn thing off. This is what Apple is making fun of in their "Comfim or Deny" ad; the ad is absolutely on target. User Account Control is simply stupid.

    12. If you haven't bought a new machine in several years, be aware that most new machines don't include a parallel port, so you may have to buy a new printer. See that one coming. There are converter cables that may allow you to plug into a USB port, but I haven't worked with one yet; cheaper than a new printer if it works.

    13. Your security suite can take a major bite out of your new machine's performance. The free version of AVG Anti-Virus works fine under both OS's. Only a paranoid can truly appreciate the full Norton and McAfee security suites. Do NOT install more than one security suite or your machine will run like crap.

    14. Empty your internet trash whenever you close your browser (tools/options/advanced in IE).

    15. Memory is cheap, and it has a major impact on performance, so don't scrimp. Get plenty of memory - at least 1GB for XP, and 2GB for Vista. Same thing for disk space. The difference between a 160GB drive and a 500GB drive is about $15.00. Think big. This is the biggest argument about buying prepackaged machines in office supply stores.

    16. To hell with extended warranty plans, unless you have a reason. Many "next day onsite service" contracts (Gateway is one of them) require you to mail your laptop into a service center for "diagnosis" before repairs will be approved, so you have paid for "onsite service" that will never be provided. I'm amazed Gateway (now Acer) haven't been targeted in a class-action suit. another problem is that that "3 year security plan" you just bought overlaps the factory warranty for the first year, which means that you're only buying an extended warranty for the 2nd and 3rd year. It may actually be cheaper to simply plan on replacing your machine every year and a half instead of buying a wall-to-wall service contract. Bad deal.

    17. If you're ordering from Dell, price it several ways. Sometimes there is an advertised special that only requires a memory upgrade, or a built-up machine may be cheaper than an "advertised special". Point is, it's a mistake to think that you will always end up with the same price, whichever way you order a machine.

    18. Dell changes its hardware configurations and package prices frequently, typically on Thursday nights. Don't assume that a saved shopping cart at Dell will last overnight. If you think you have a good deal and the configuration you want, don't wait. Just buy the damn thing. I just lost an order for a nice xp laptop for a client that was going to cost $1250. Dell discontinued it overnight and I ended up buying the new model for $950, with the same or better specs. I won this time, but usually it goes the other way.

    19. The best upgrade path for Vista is a new machine with Vista pre-installed. Don't even waste your time trying to upgrade an existing machine. It's not worth the trouble. Buy it, don't build it. Let a manufacturer deal with the myriad incompatabilities and inconsistencies. They can't afford to ship buggy machines, plus they're better at it than you (or I) will ever be.

    As with all of our gratuitous advice, double your money back if not completely satisfied.

    $.02.
     
  20. 1atatime

    1atatime TS Member

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    I'm not particularly computer savvy. I mostly know my way around what I want to do using XP. When I bought a new computer with Vista, I thought it would be great. I've had such problems with Vista that I am going to hire someone to remove Vista and install XP. I'm even looking at converting over to a Mac because Vista is such a pain in the butt.

    If you're a "computer geek", you may like it fine. Not me.
     
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