1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

OT question for .223 shooters

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by jnoemanh, Jul 27, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. jnoemanh

    jnoemanh TS Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    526
    According to US Army report today, Pat Tillman was killed by "friendly fire". He took three rounds in a 2" group, to the forehead. So, experienced M-16 shooters, do you think you could, in daylight conditions, put a 2" group in Pat's forehead while mistaking him for an enemy (Taliban) fighter?

    One ballistics expert estimates Tillman was shot from 10 yards. The Army says he was shot from 90 yards.

    Was it a "friendly fire accident", or was Tillman fragged?

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>
     
  2. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    524
    If it was an M-16A2 with the selector set on burst - one tigger pull will fire three rounds that will impact that way.
     
  3. ArmySGM

    ArmySGM Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    252
    With the effective range for a point target being approximately 550 meters, it's very possible to place three close together at only 90 yards. They didn't send those soldiers over there without the ability to shoot and hit what they shoot at.


    Primary function: Infantry weapon
    Manufacturer: Colt Manufacturing and Fabrique Nationale Manufacturing Inc.
    Length: 39.63 inches (100.66 centimeters)
    Weight, with 30 round magazine: 8.79 pounds (3.99 kilograms)
    Bore diameter: 5.56mm (.233 inches)
    Maximum effective range:
    Area target: 2,624.8 feet (800 meters)
    Point target: 1,804.5 feet (550 meters)
    Muzzle velocity: 2,800 feet (853 meters) per second
    Rate of fire:
    Cyclic: 800 rounds per minute
    Sustained: 12-15 rounds per minute
    Semiautomatic: 45 rounds per minute
    Burst: 90 rounds per minute
    Magazine capacity: 30 rounds
    Unit Replacement Cost: $586


    Gary
     
  4. jimx200

    jimx200 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    623
    I heard on the radio today that the possibility exists that Pat was indeed shot by one of our own. The report said he ordered or told a soldier to shape up or quit whining or something similar. God, I hope this story is not true, and if it is, that they hang the murderer. With the way our govt. has covered this up from the beginning, something really smells here.
     
  5. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    25,251
    Location:
    Deplorable Bitter Clinger in Liberal La La Land
    We're talking about three hits in the forehead, not his entire head. I think he was shot at close range. Anyone who has shot an M16 in full auto knows the groups open up quickly due to bolt movement. And the M4 version opens up even more. Keep in mind this was also under fire, not on a range.
     
  6. grammie

    grammie TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    658
    I fired "expert" with the M-16 in my scoring rounds,,,200 targets,,5 second PoP-Up/Fall-Down targets ranging from 25 meters out to 450 meters from several differant postions with standard peep-sight,,,I was pretty good too firing three round bursts out to 250yds,,,,But not once was I ever able to put three rounds into the same target with the same burst at ANYTHING beyond 60 meters,,,and that was shooting with a BI-POD....But my 1st round almost always hit the target,,and the other two would hit Left and Right of poi,,(if you relaxed and let it jump the way its going too anyway)...

    A group of young,,scared rangers,,under fire for the first time,,firing in all directions,,,and trying to dive for cover all at the same time,,,Yeah,,,its possible to be hit 3 times close together!!!

    Also,,,consider this,,,they were just coming up to his postion,,,they were alert,,but not panicked,,,,,they WERE NOT wearing ear plugs!!! They were close together,,,,and I promise,,,,they were STONE,COLD,-----DEAF,,after the 1st shot,,,the concussion from up close with everyone firing would have forced your mouth open,,and your ears would hear nothing!!!!! When a whole squad opens up,,,even when your rifle is hugged close and tight to your cheek,,,you CANNOT hear your own weapon fire!!!! The only thing thing you hear,,,is the re-coil spring working,,you can't even feel re-coil!!!!

    Pat Tillman could have stood and shouted with a bull-horn,,,no one would have heard....

    AKA Grammie...........
     
  7. SF SGM

    SF SGM Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2006
    Messages:
    561
    Location:
    Palm Coast, Florida
    I find it very hard to believe Tillman was shot at 90 yards with a 3 round burst resulting in a 2" group. Sit back and think about it, the conditions, etc. 2" group in the forehead on fully auto, not likely. Between the recoil of the weapon, recoil of the head from impact of the rounds makes me doubt the Army's findings.

    Combat as Grammie stated is very, very loud and confusing at times. There will be more investigations and the autopsy report will not be made public so we will not know what the group looked liked, only the size. Was the group vertical, then perhaps auto fire. The Dr's who did the autopsy reported that the rounds were fired at close range, perhaps 10 yards or so but even at that close of range, the grouping could tell you if it was fully auto or semi fire.

    The Army screwed up big time trying to cover it up. Friendly fire is part of the nature of the beast known as combat. We can train, train and train but it will happen and will continue to happen. Was he a victim of a friendly fire accident or were the rounds put in his head on purpose by a scared, angry young troop, someone out there knows the answer and it make take a while, but the truth will come out. Even when the truth comes out the bottom line will not change, a young man is dead.

    Van
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.