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OT Plumbing Problem Moen Dialcet Faucet

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by TC, Mar 13, 2010.

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  1. TC

    TC TS Member

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    Trying to get the cartridge out, won't budge. Got the "U" shaped keeper out but the cartridge will not budge. Any experienced help would be appreceated. Tony
     
  2. brucestorey

    brucestorey Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
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    Go buy yourself a Moen cartridge pulling tool. This is a must, especially if you are trying to pull out one of those piece of junk brass cartridges. Even with the tool, if you are trying to get a brass cartridge out, you may never do it without pulling the center of the cartridge out, while leaving the outer part stuck in the valve with little hope of ever getting it out. This will leave you with one option -- replacing the entire valve/faucet.

    Once you have the tool, back-out the screw on the tool as far as it will go, then align the slots on the base of the tool inside the left and right notches on the cartridge. Hold the tool firmly against the cartridge and tighten the screw on the tool as tight as it will go into the stem. Next, turn the base (nut shaped) part of the tool clockwise with your hand until it is snug against the front of the valve where the cartridge resides, then give it a quarter turn or so with a wrench. This might get the cartridge started at coming out, but if not, and especially if you are dealing with a metal cartridge, using the "T" handle on the tool work the tool and cartridge left and right with short strokes to try and free-up the large part of the cartridge from the inside of the valve body. If this loosens the cartridge some, turn the nut again until it is tight, then wiggle again while pulling back towards you, away from the valve.

    If you are lucky and aren't dealing with a metal cartridge, but are dealing with a plastic cartridge, you have nothing to worry about -- you will get it out. If you are dealing with a metal cartridge, be very careful with every step you take and don't apply too much force with any of the steps or you will be calling a plumber and probably buying a new faucet.

    I am a plumber and this is the type of stuff I deal with on a daily basis, but when I come across a metal cartridge that needs to be pulled, my heart sinks -- especially if it is in a tub or a shower faucet. I always let my customer know what might happen. However, over the years, I have worked out ways to get the pieces of metal cartridge out, but it takes a lot of time and I am not always successful.

    The best advice I can give you is to go buy a tool and don't try pulling the cartridge out with Channeloks or Vice Grips. Pay attention to what you are doing and do it carefully so you don't bend or break any part of the cartridge you are trying to pull out.

    Bruce
     
  3. Bill Bauer

    Bill Bauer TS Member

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    Jan 29, 1998
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    The advice Bruce gave you is spot on. I just went thru a similar experience and $96.00 later a new faucet was installed. The plumber was a friend and took the old faucet to see if he could remove the cartridge just as a learning tool. Saw him a few days ago and he said he finally gave up on it. Good luck on your's.
    Bill
     
  4. TC

    TC TS Member

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    Have the tool. Also have been trying to inject 5% vinegar but it is not doing much of anything. Would heat help?
     
  5. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

    Joined:
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    Tony: Be careful if you use heat and go slowly so you don't damage anything. Consider a heat gun instead of a torch and remember that heat causes expansion so try to heat around the cartridge instead of the cartridge itself. If the heat doesn't work, try penetrating oil.

    Friendly tip: When you replace Moen parts, consider buying spares because you'll likely need to replace them again before you know it. That's especially true of the clear plastic teardrop style knobs used on so many of their bathroom fixtures. I buy them 4-6 at a time. Moen must have a superb advertising/PR firm. People still swear by their quality but in my opinion it's been going downhill for years. I've never encountered a more over-rated product.

    -Gary
     
  6. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    TC-Bruce What is holding in ? If it,s lime the fix is muriatic acid .

    Good Luck
     
  7. Bvr Tail

    Bvr Tail Well-Known Member

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    I put all Moen in a new bedroom/bathroom addition, and wish I hadn't. Have had to repair/replace the tub cartridges several times and the sink once. I always use a liberal amount of faucet lube. Some have been stubborn, but always came out.

    Moen Co. will give you the replacement parts for free for life. At least that is my experience!

    Danny
     
  8. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    rick yes your right ?? I,v used alot of Muriatic acid to wash brick
     
  9. doniphandad

    doniphandad TS Member

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    I haven't had to do this but I have heard that after you pull the guts out of the cartridge you can then carefully thread it with a tap. Don't remember what size. Then you can pull it out with the die or screw a bolt into it. Hope this helps.
    Dad
     
  10. TC

    TC TS Member

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    Dad, don't think that would work. It is a slip fit with a keeper to hold it in place. There really isn't anything to thread as far as I can see.
     
  11. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Grab it with a vice grips and pull until it comes out and it will ... I just changed two in the showers in my house and they came out after I pulled hard enough, long enough ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  12. brucestorey

    brucestorey Member

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    I see a lot of the type of advice here that gives me lots of work on Monday mornings. You can soak it all you want, but whatever the liquid is you use, it's not going to get beyond the first o-ring at the front of the cartridge and into the section between that o-ring and the back o-ring where the mineral buildups are. The o-rings are what keep the water in the valve and seal it to the inside of the valve body in the first place. How can you expect anything you try to soak it with to get beyond the sealing o-rings? You can't, and it won't.

    Like I said before, you have to work it slowly with the tool to get the outer part of the cartridge out without pulling the center portion out. Vice Grips are not your friend if the cartridge is seized inside the valve body.

    Bruce
     
  13. dustmaker

    dustmaker Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
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    I replaced the brass cartridges in a couple of Moen bathroom faucets. First I bought the pulling tool, all that did was pull the inside out of the cartridge. After a call to Moen, they told me to use a 1/2 inch drill bit to remove the rest of the cartridge. It worked for me.
     
  14. maka

    maka Member

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    Moen for life???? I paid a plumber big $$$$ to install Mown in kitchen top model with sprayer built in. Less than a year ,wife decides to have bridal shower for niece. Wouldn't you know that Saturday morning wife is washing some dishes and the handle breaks off. Call plumber. If he has to come on Sat. time and half plus milage plus parts. Told him to shove it!! Went to local home center and purchase an American Standard for less than 1/2 cost of Moen. My opinon only junk the Moen and replace it.
     
  15. brucestorey

    brucestorey Member

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    How did this end up?

    Bruce
     
  16. brucestorey

    brucestorey Member

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    twostraight wrote: "Delta"

    I say KOHLER

    Bruce
     
  17. brucestorey

    brucestorey Member

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    Tony,

    I know exactly what you're talking about with the shape of the tabs on the tool -- I have the same opinion as you regarding how it should be more squared-off and bulkier. What you did to the cartridge's ears is what happens almost every time I get into a metal cartridge that is tough to get out.

    At this point, it looks like you are going to have to bite the bullet and get aggressive with getting this thing out. I will try to help you out and give you some pointers.

    First and foremost, you must do everything you can, throughout the whole replacement process, to not damage the inside of the valve body -- even the smallest scratch in the brass on the inside can cause the o-rings on the new cartridge not to seal and you will end up with a leak out of the front of the faucet, behind the handle area.

    When I get to where you are right now, I have resigned myself to the possibility that I will be replacing the whole faucet, so I either have a new faucet with me or I have some 1/2" valves or caps to put on the supply lines so I can come back later and put a new faucet on. This way, my customer still has water, just not for the faucet I took out. The easiest thing for a non-plumber is to have some "Shark Bite" caps at the ready. You can buy these at any good hardware store or home center. These caps just slide right onto the end of the pipe with no fire or wrenches needed. They work very well.

    Now, it's time for me to get angry with the cartridge. I will give the cartridge tool one last chance to pull the cartridge. I will use every ounce of energy I have to twist, pull and crank. Either the whole cartridge will come out (doubtful), or the center stem will pull out, leaving the outer portion stuck inside the valve body. Up to this point, you have done nothing that could damage the inside of the valve body, but from here on, everything you do has to be done carefully with consideration for the integrity of the inside of the valve body.

    When the center stem pulls out, it (hopefully) will also pull out the top retaining piece with it (which looks like a washer for a 1/4" bolt) and you will be left with just the outer portion of the cartridge in the valve body. If this piece did not come out, stick a screwdriver, or something similar in size to the hole, inside of it and pry left, right, up and down to mangle it and get it to come out. You will not hurt the inside of the valve body when you are doing this. Once you get this out, you should have an opening of about 1/2". Now, you are ready to work on getting the outer part of the cartridge out. The tool I use for this is a fluted spiral bolt/pipe extractor. It looks like one of these, at this link and you can get them at a hardware store:

    http://metalworking.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1738661.

    I have no idea what size or # it is that I use, but you should use the largest one you can find that will contact the most surface area possible. Put the extractor into the cartridge and start turning it with a wrench. Once it starts turning the cartridge, you need to start pulling and turning at the same time. Whatever you do, do not try to get the cartridge out by sticking a screwdriver between it and the valve body -- this will scratch the valve body for sure.

    Now that you have this piece of junk metal cartridge out, clean the inside of the valve body with a 3/4" copper fitting brush to remove the mineral deposits that got it stuck in there. This brushing is fine and will not damage the valve body. Now, put some silicone valve grease on the outside of your new PLASTIC MOEN BRAND (do not buy an aftermarket/generic brand cartridge, and do not but a metal cartridge) and push the new cartridge back into the valve body. Be sure to put the horse shoe clip back where it belongs. At the end and on one of the flat sides of the cartridge stem is a drilled hole. If hot and cold are piped correctly to the valve, this hole should be facing up for your hot to be on the left and cold on the right.

    Turn the water back on and check it out. If hot and cold are backwards, simply turn the center stem 180 degrees, so the drilled hole I mentioned is facing down. You don’t need to remove the cartridge to do this. Now put the stop tube, trim plate and knob back on.

    You are done!

    Good luck,

    Bruce
     
  18. ricks1

    ricks1 TS Member

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    After you pull the U clip take a small screw driver and set on the inside of the flat area and tap it down that will breake the crud seal. I have never had one come apart that way. I have done several hundred. clean inside with a green scuffy and drill lube with PLUMBERS grease and good for another 10 + yrs
    Not all Moen is for life some they will not back
     
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