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OT.Bush agrees to help Detroit.

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by Bocephas, Dec 19, 2008.

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  1. Bocephas

    Bocephas Well-Known Member

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    The politicians in Washington have started to take notice of the problems
    that would result if no action were taken.

    Bo
     
  2. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    RickN

    Made me chuckle.

    They need to go into bankruptcy. Taxpayers will not accept supporting excessive union wages or benefits.

    Obama must be praying Bush does something before it is his problem. And the Republicans will do just enough to make sure it ready to implode when he takes office.

    Don

    I did buy a new Chevy Tahoe in August. We make good vehicles. But not efficiently enough to support an added $2000 per unit for "excessive" wages/benefits.
     
  3. highflyer

    highflyer TS Member

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    We are like a family that is in financial trouble that is getting new credit cards to pay off debt. It might work in the short term but some day the bill is going to come due.
     
  4. claybrdr

    claybrdr Well-Known Member

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    And the market drops....
     
  5. Gold E

    Gold E TS Member

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    The Federalization of banks, insurance, and now automobile manufacturing…just as Bush is about to hand the keys over to Obama. Hmm…
     
  6. Haskins Bill

    Haskins Bill TS Member

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    Hell yeah cut the union wages and then instead of having 5 to 6 thousand dollars profit on a nice vehicle the companies can be making 8 or 10 thousand profit. Kiss my arse all you union hating ba$$$$$s!I can not belive I am the only union retiree on this site. How about how much the union bulldozer drivers make or the electricians, millwirghts, carpenters, tin knockers, boiler makers etc. that work out of union halls all across this country. Yeah the union longshoremen that make horrendous amounts of money unloading ship load after shipload of Chinese junk products day in and day out? Isn't the cost of labor to make a car about 8% of the cost? Where the hell is the other costs from? You don't know what efficency is if it hit you in the face. Those of you who have never been inside a manufacturing facility of any sort do not know what you are talking about at all. I don't mean just automobiles. The Mexicans and the Chinese have people falling all over themselves trying to make cars and trucks because they have such cheap labor costs they build them the way it was here in the fifties.
     
  7. Dove Commander

    Dove Commander TS Member

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    Bill, I've use to do alot of work in GM plants. Break rooms are full of people for hours at a time, and you still can't find a Millwright when you need one. They pay them to not work while an outside contractor does the dirty work. The abuse varies from plant to plant. In our town, UAW workers brag about how they screw off all day. This kind of crap is what starts the union bashing and lack of regards if the Big 3 is saved. Few realise this is not the norm. The bad stuff is what the common people remember. So when you get on your podium, remember many have heard "the other side of the story" whether it exists today or not.
     
  8. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    There is a bigger problem. People are just not ethical in this process. I had a Union Steward when out of town be a total jerk, not even letting me bring in my tools till I went across town to the hall and signed the letter. (travelers requirement, not a big deal, just letting the local know you're there).

    I had spoken with the B.A. prior to the trip. This jerk acted like a rogue cop gone bad. Yes, he was young, yes he was ethnic. His crap was unnecessary, and after a 500 mile drive pissed me off.

    It's on both sides of the coin. Management breaks the rules and sweeps it under the rug. After a few times it becomes an ignored rule.

    Forging reports, running bad product so production doesn't lag, all that crap.

    People just aren't decent to each other any more. That's why you need a contract with the details spelled out.

    My wife's employer doesn't fire people. Their stuff is piled outside their office door and the lock is changed, that's how they know. Security is there too to escort them out.

    Business is not done with a handshake and a man's word any more. that's a good way to lose your shirt.

    I think we need to start a new country.

    HM
     
  9. mike moncilovich

    mike moncilovich TS Member

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    Haskins Bill, your not alone. See Bill, there is an orcrestrated attempt to abolish the voice of the "blue-collared worker" by the neo-cons who sold their souls to Japs and others. Fact (1) the 75 dollar figure was created by a reporter from I believe the NY Post. Taking all compensation, including Board members mega million dollar bonuses and widow pensions of $300.00 per month, toilet paper and everything else to average it. Fact (2) The Japs and the German companies pay an average $2.50 higher in their homelands than here for blue-collar workers. The last ranking I have seen was in 1995 placing U.S. workers 17th in total compensation and I don't seen anything since to make a change for the better.
    See nobody gets anything without leverage with labor it is by grouping together, unlike say, doctors who if you won't pay what they demand, you can go suffer, just as an example of leverage.
    Another issue is the these alien corps. have much younger work force no pensions. Put your crums in the hands of the Bernie Madoffs they say...Mike
     
  10. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Short term and short sighted solution that will not solve the serious underlying problems with Detroit. We will be right back to square one as soon as the money runs out, and then will come Bailout II.<br>
    <br>
    Detroit, and especially GM, bought up or merged with other car makers. Perhaps the time has come to eliminate some of its divisions and go to a core product - Chevy for cars and light trucks, and GMC for heavier vehicles. Close all the other divisions. Then concentrate on higher quality and fuel mileage.<br>
    <br>
    And another thing, it's bad enough all the socialist programs and entitlements we have without resorting to socialist corporate welfare.<br>
    <br>
    If we MUST bail out Detroit, why not issue the taxpayers stock certificates in the amount that we are being stuck with? I have not done the math, but some newspaper reports are saying this is going to cost the taxpayers $3000 apiece. Since we're owning some of Detroit, give us $3000 worth of GM, Ford and Chrysler stock.
     
  11. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    Brian, I will help with the math. Lets just say theres only 100 million people paying tax. For them to cough up 20 billion they would have to dish out $200 each not $3,000 I was told years ago "don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see"
     
  12. djpk69

    djpk69 TS Member

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    Are any other "unions" asking for HELP ? I thought WE were talking UAW. I don't see elec./plumbers/bulldozers..........asking for RElIEF. It's the UAW's company OWNERS........who can NOT control (or get a handle on) WHAT they AGREED to years back. So......go bankrupt, and see how strong the work force is. Start over with 2008 THINKING.
     
  13. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I can't tell from the annual reports, and any auxillary information, how much GM pays per hour for UAW labor. I also can't tell how many hours of labor per automotive unit they pay for.

    I can tell you that in 2007, GM sold more cars in the world than any other car maker - just a few more than Toyota.

    GM is at the trough saying that without a US Government handout, they can't survive.

    GM's business model, therefore, does not work. They have to change their business model. Included in their business model is the contract with the UAW. If that does not change, the business model cannot change enough to make GM competitive.

    Note: GM is competitive from a sales standpoint, keep that in mind. They sell, for all practical purposes, as many cars as any car maker in the world.

    Danny
     
  14. Delbert

    Delbert TS Member

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    The buggy whip industry needs help too. Now that Bush has set the precedent, the flood gates will open. Hold on to your wallets.
     
  15. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Toolmaker, I'll settle for $200 worth of stock. Better than nothing.
     
  16. REA

    REA TS Member

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    The first thing Chrysler does is give everybody a paid vacation? (at taxpayers expense?) What a deal. When they get back, most of those vehicles will still be sitting on the lots because the average person can't afford them.

    Until all the US auto makers adjust to the times it will keep failing. In fact even if they did, I don't believe anything is going to stop the plunge until it hits bottom.

    It's my guess that Bush will be getting a new free car every year for the rest of his life.
     
  17. oz

    oz Active Member

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    How much of this handout money will stay in the USA????? a big percentage of your (american) autos are partially and/or completely made in other countries. Look at the big ford plant in brazil. AND we bail them out and they will for damn sure raise prices again. I wish I could make $75.00 an hour. oz
     
  18. TRAINWRECK

    TRAINWRECK TS Member

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    Right now Ford has a 4 to 6 week shutdown going on at the Truck Plant in Louiseville KY. They have on site hundreds of Union Tradesmen, working 7 days a week 24 hours a day. This project is huges but they need money before they go broke. WHY?

    Toyota also uses Union Tradesmen for shutdown work and pay their non-union empolyees, a wage packages that is more than the UAW employees get in the Big Three.

    Toyota in Georgetown KY has a shutdown going on at this time using Union Labor but Toyota has cutout the overtime on the shutdown due to the economy and car sale. They have extended their shutdown the same way as the big three have but no weekend work or overtime work will be done. Toyota is not asking for big bucks to stay a float. They cut spending when needed.

    The big three's spending habits need to change. If you are about go bankrupt why spend money that you dont have?

    If the Big Three was making a better products with conserative spending habits they would not be in this kind of trouble.

    The UAW has some bennies that other Union Trades do not have. But the UAW is not the reason the Big Three"s is in trouble.

    Do you remember the Chrysler Bailout years ago, it wasnt the UAW fault then just bad management as it is today.

    Why is it OK to bail out AIG and others but give the Big Three a line of S--T for asking for help and blame the Unions for the trouble? It all boils done to bad management decisons for everyone that need help.

    If the UAW is the Big Threes trouble, what is AIG and the other Wall Street Fat Cats problem? Its not the UNIONS.
     
  19. Bocephas

    Bocephas Well-Known Member

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    Yep, it's all the Unions fault.Some of you need to get your head out of your #ss.
    Let's put everyone on the same pay as Walmart and Burger King.
    What the #ell if you work for Walley World or Burger King you get FREE medical insurance paid for by you and I.We are becoming a Welfare country,even Wall Street has the kettles out and ringing the bell.

    Some of you need to look at history,The Fall of Rome.

    Who do you think started Welfare? Rome do to a @iss poor leader,a military that was over extended,and imposing amount of people that were impecunious.

    Thus Welfare was started.Sound like a stimulus packaged to you?

    They say History Repeats itself.

    Bocephas
     
  20. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I don't know of any production workers at Wal-Mart of Burger King making $77 per hour, even if you throw all benefits in.

    If UAW workers make $77 per hour and the same package paid by Toyota in their plants is $40 per hour, the UAW workers need to be about twice as productive as Toyota workers.

    Math does not lie. GM sold as many cars as Toyota in 2007, and it is nearly bankrupt.

    Danny
     
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