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OT-bluing discoloration

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by whopper1, Oct 27, 2007.

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  1. whopper1

    whopper1 Member

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    I have a Smith and Wesson model 29 44 mag that was aquired from a family member.
    Upon receiving, I wiped it down and put it in the safe without paying too much attention to it. At the time I noticed nothing abnormal about the gun. After a couple of months, I got the gun out and now notice that the barrel appears to have a redish tint to it. Anyone ever see anything like that? I also know that the gun was shot very little.
     
  2. coyote268

    coyote268 TS Member

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    It sometimes happens if it is not left in the blueing solution long enough or the solution is not hot enough to open the pours for the rust process to take. A lot of Browning A5's have this problem. Nothing to worry about, just keep a good coat of oil on it.
    Dan
     
  3. cimmaronkid

    cimmaronkid TS Member

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    Would be interesting to know when the gun was produced. S&W like all companies have had to cut back on their quality to be able to hold a price line. The early 29's had a deep polish and had an extremely bright dark blue (not black) and just guessing, I would say that this 29 was a fairly early one. The condition is nothing to worry about and you will see it on a lot of fine older guns. It can also be caused by leaving the gun in the vat for the improper amount of time, but this usually is reserved for firearms that have been reblued. I believe yours is just showing its proud age.
     
  4. smokerz

    smokerz TS Member

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    The so-called "blueing" is actually black iron oxide, Fe2O3, obtained in a hot (290F) caustic solution. Over fairly long periods of time, say 20-50 years, some of that oxide slowly converts to FeO, what we call rust. A bit of original black oxide plus a bit of red/brown oxide (aka "rust") results in a dark brown/reddish color which dealers like to call "plum". There's nothing wrong, it's a natural and unavoidable process. Keep it oiled and in a dry location to slow the process.
     
  5. b12

    b12 Well-Known Member

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    Have no fear about the blueing. The redish tint that may appear is from a good quality steel that was used in the gun.What I mean by good quality is from the heattreat and hardining of the material. The harder the metal the harder it is for the blueing to penatrate the surface. A good many 03A3 springfields were double heatreated and many of the best mauser 98's were triple heatreated. With a small gunshop operation this is very hard to get the metal to turn completly dark without using a addative. Which in time will give a red tint anyway.
    Many of the older Mod12's with high nickle content in the reciever will show this in time.Some smith's will heat the metal up with a tourch before dipping it in the blueing solution but that is not a good practice. Its possible to take some of the hardness out of the material. Remember this is not case hardening which is mainly surface hardining for surface protection only. Don't worry about the blueing.
     
  6. whopper1

    whopper1 Member

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    Thanks everyone for all of your replies-it has put my mind at ease.

    Dave
     
  7. Big Az Al

    Big Az Al Well-Known Member

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    My 2 cents!!!!!!!!!

    If ferris steel comes out of the hot bluing solution "RED" that red can be any other color the n black at times,

    THE STEEL WAS PUT IN AT TO HIGH OF TEMPERTURE!

    I have had the, "it is the qualitygood steel line since I could walk", and it is pure and simple bunk, BS, wrong!

    My dad was doing bluing before I could walk, and plain and simple we do not let RED guns out, that is our mistake we fix it, the customer is paying for the job done RIGHT!!!!!!


    Al
     
  8. Big Az Al

    Big Az Al Well-Known Member

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    I did not put my Email on that last post here it is!

    Al
     
  9. whopper1

    whopper1 Member

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    Hey Big Az AL

    This was not a re-blue. As I stated in my original posting, I had not noticed this on the barrel only of this gun when I first received it. It was after it was in my possession of approx 6 months that I noticed the plum coloring of the barrel. It is a Smith and Wesson model 29-2 44 mag that was purchased new by my brother in law. I have kept it in my gunsafe with all of my other trapguns, revolvers, rifles, etc.

    Dave
     
  10. AJ100

    AJ100 TS Member

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    My old model Super Blackhawk is turning that there plum color.

    DAMN IDIOTS AT RUGER! THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE LET THAT REVOLVER GET OUT OF THE BUILDING WITH THAT RED COLOR ON IT! THEY SHOULD HAVE CALLED AN OLD TIME GUNSMITH LIKE, LIKE, HELL I DON'T KNOW, SOMEONES DAD OR SOMEBODY.

    OOPS! It was blue when I bought it NEW in the 70's. Guess some steel turns that way with age, HUH?

    BTW, if you ever want anything blued in SW PA. call Mike Crevar. He has been at it since 1971. He does a lot of high grade target shotguns. When you look around a shop and see Krieghoffs, Ljutics, Perazzis and Kolars waiting for wood or bluing, you know the guy is good.

    BTW, bigal, what is the correct temp?

    AJ100
     
  11. Big Az Al

    Big Az Al Well-Known Member

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    aj100

    That is a trick question, to answer in its entirety would be giving out trade secrets! although more then one answer may still be correct! What ASA grade of steel and what heat treat does it have? are all the parts the same steel and heat treat? And then who's salts are you using? one wrong answer and the color is RED! but it doesn't need to be!

    BTW AJ, Mike C, beats the license for my shop by one year, my dad got that in 72, he doing good work long before that though! And I was well on my way to being able to work on my own and be as good!

    And over the years I have seen plenty of Ruger Super Blackhawks that came from the factory with red cylinders, just like the RED barrel lug on the 870 Remington barrels.

    If you think you have a gun or part of a gun that is "SUCH QUALITY" it will only turn RED! BRING IT ON, I like to see jaws drop!

    Al

    PS After I turn it black, I will let you buy a twelve pack of a certian German Beer, and we can set back and swap tails about just about anything!
     
  12. smokerz

    smokerz TS Member

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    **That is a trick question, to answer in its entirety would be giving out trade secrets!**

    285-290F, it matters not which brand of salts you use. Red color is either a bath contaminated with copper, or one which needs rectification.
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I have blued many guns and I will give Al's secrete temperature away. The proper temperature to blue a gun with hard steel varies. It should be blued at a slightly lower temperature and left in the tank a little longer. The exact temperature and length of time depends on how fresh the salts are in the tank and what else may be in the tank. A bluing tank is pretty messy. With a few years experience, that includes doing several guns over because they came out with a red tint, one learns to read the bluing that is taking place on the metal. Lifting out the parts and quickly glancing at them while the process is underway will tell you how much longer to leave them in and if you need to raise or lower the temperature. Experience teaches you how to read the metal and Al's secrete is experience.

    Al, have you ever blued 10-20 guns the same morning and then gotten parts mixed up. I have.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. Big Az Al

    Big Az Al Well-Known Member

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    Pat

    20 some years ago, we had a shop buy almost a thousend LLama and Star 380 caliber pistols. They all needed work and and refinishing, that was a sleepless couple of months. Also the STEEL wire for tagging parts will keep little parts from getting mixed up, tie the parts for a gun together tie a washer that has a mumber stamped on it with the parts, was #1 to pan #1, #2 to pan #2 etc...... and it takes some of the puzzlement away,

    And we have found that the right temp can be as low as 275 and as high as 305, and having used, diversblack, and Panther black and a few others over the years, the literature they send would vary from 265 on the low end to 310 on the high end, and yes it does matter, any red hues in the finish is telling you, "TO HOT".

    Has anybody ever had the oppertunity of turning assemblies that are Labratory Equipment black? My dad took several customers away from a CHEMIST who that maintained that red was unavoidable, the ones that have not passed on are still good customers and friends!

    Al
     
  15. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I'm having Al to do some bluing for me soon too. One of the guns is a Win.12 with a nickel steel barrel. I'll post pics, before and after so you can see the quality bluing his shop does. Hap
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The real skill in bluing involves preparing the gun metal to go into the tanks.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. Big Az Al

    Big Az Al Well-Known Member

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    Pat

    that was the longest, part of the learning curve, first learning to make something really badly abused look good, then learning how to match polishes, to a Manufacturer, then if it is possible to attempt at all, do a refinish close enough to factory, that the pickyest, wanabe expert ends up double speaking to cover his backside, because it is that close.

    My dad took every chance he could make to learn from some really good people, he is also the best teacher I have ever had, and then starting as a kid, I have to many years under my belt. And I have never turned my nose up at a chance to learn even if it turns out that my skill is beyond what I am being shown.

    Al
     
  18. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    Around 1968 the U.S. company Smith & Wesson was acquired my a Brazillian (I think) conglomerate by the name of Bangor-Punta. The quality of firearms took a noticeable drop after that, and, I'm sorry to say, the 29-2 was one of the models produced after the takeover.
     
  19. smokerz

    smokerz TS Member

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    **The real skill in bluing involves preparing the gun metal to go into the tanks.**

    Exactly so. I can provide the necessary equipment and controls, and take any kid off the street and teach him to do the 'dipping' part in a week or two. Learning top-notch metal finishing skills takes years, and some never master it.
     
  20. Big Az Al

    Big Az Al Well-Known Member

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    Smoke

    that is why I am not shy about the three plus decades of time spent doing the work!

    When I claim 4 deades people look at me like a can not count, because That would put my first training at my being less then ten years old! I was about five when my dad gave an Iver Johnson Revolver in pieces in a cigar box and told me "make it work" when I handed it to him working, he took it apart and said "do it again" we did that for the better part of a year. is seven or so when I was so interested in the polishing equipment that he took some really nasty parts showed me what needed to be done and said have at it! He made me get fairly good on the junk before he let me touch a paying job.

    Al
     
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