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OT - 287(g) question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by dmarbell, Aug 12, 2008.

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  1. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    There was a thread here, or on THR.com, can't remember, some time ago about a young man who refused to produce an ID as a passenger in a motor vehicle. The driver was stopped, and an officer asked for the passenger's ID. He was adamant that individuals not operating a motor vehicle are not required to produce IDs.

    Under 287(g), which provides for local law enforcement to assume some of the duties of immigration officers, are individuals required to produce IDs when asked by law enforcement? Do local law enforcement officers only require IDs from those driving motor vehicles or of whom they suspect are doing something illegal, besides illegal immigration?

    Danny
     
  2. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    A while ago, my husband & I were driving home from a restaurant we eat at alot, when he was pulled over. We were just driving, not speeding, nothing was broken on the truck, etc. The officer asked for both of our drivers license's, no insurance proof, no registration. He asked us what way we typically went home (I told him there were about 4 different routes we could take), he asked where were coming from, etc.

    About 5 minutes later, he came back, gave us our licenses, thanked us and told us to be careful going home.

    Turns out, they were looking for a "couple" in a vehicle similar to my husband's truck.

    So I think the answer is yes, they can ask the passenger for ID. If I would've said no, I'm sure we would have been pulled out of the truck -- none to nicely, at that.
     
  3. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    This has been all the way to SCOTUS. If asked by Law Enforcement, you are obligated to provide identification. You may be arrested and held without bond until your identity is verified. Your attorney will grin, take your money, and tell you the same thing. The Judge will grin, fine the heck out of you, and make fun of you in front of the Court.

    A LEO may legally walk up to you on the street, ask for your ID and frisk you for weapons for his safety (Terry Frisk). If he feels something suspicious, like a bag of drugs or such, it is allowable evidence in a Court-of-Law. If you attempt to leave, evade or escape, he will chase you and bring an @$$kicking with him!

    If asked, produce your ID, and do not give false information (another offense). Also, do not violate laws or carry contraband. Finding contraband is a major part of revenue for many jurisdictions. When you are pulled over for a traffic offense in larger cities, they are looking for a reason to search your car and find big ticket items. Drugs, guns, cash, etc. The broken tail light is just a revenue enhancer and reason to pull you over. They really want to get in your car. You may not have even realized this when you got your last ticket. The training is GOOD.

    Although I am NOT in favor of legalizing drugs, this is a major moneymaker and reason given for funding of law enforcement. I train extensively with drug interdiction units. They have funding for advanced training, and since I am a State Certified Firearms Trainer, I can often piggy back and train with them. The Constable On Patrol (Beat Cop) gets the minimum firearms and tactical training required by law. The drug cops get the best training and high speed toys.

    In my city, SWAT has their duty station at the LETA (Law Enforcement Training Academy), and train five days a week, several hours a day. If they are not called out, they bust their keisters on the range, in the gym, and the dojo. There is a Gunsmith (whom I have known for 30 years) on premise who will clean, tune, or modify fireams while they wait. Joe still does some low stress training with them to better understand what they need in the field. When they DO go out, they are using a lot of military tactics!

    Last fall, I was invited to go to Baton Rouge, LA for a week long Advanced Law Enforcement Training Camp. I trained alongside LE AND Military Trainers. The training was the SAME. Civilian Law Enforcement is geting closer to Military techniques, while the Military is moving toward Court defensible techniques. This is not a good thing for either arena. We are putting a muzzle on our Military Guard Dogs, while turning our Civilian Sheep Dogs into wolves.

    When in public, your rights are limited. Much more since Sept, 2001. The level of surveillance and intrusion on individual rights will increase, regardless of who wins the election this fall.

    Don't shoot the messenger. I don't make the laws. I am obligated to train Armed Professionals and Citizens in a manner consistent with current law. This keeps them (and me) out of Civil Court. Many of these laws were passed in a Congress controlled by Democrats. LOL
     
  4. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Shooting Coach,

    All that, and we don't really live in a "police state," right?

    Let's say I don't own or drive a car, don't travel abroad so I don't have a passport (which I wouldn't carry with me anyway), don't use credit cards, don't hunt or fish, don't fly an airplane, don't carry a concealed weapon, don't have health insurance, don't shoot ATA, NSSA, or NSCA... (I'm trying to think through what's in my wallet for ID)... don't normally carry my SS Card, have a bank account set up when I turned 18 in my home town where everybody knew me...

    LEO stops me on the street and asks for ID. I tell them who I am and where I live. What ID am I required, by law and not by some fictitious understanding of the law, to produce? Can I be detained until I prove my identity?

    By the way, the drug war is now all about the money. In my state, the state LEOs use planes and copters to spot pot plants. They admit that, although they eradicate the plants they find, only about one in ten finds results in an arrest. But without the funding, they wouldn't have those cool aircraft to fly.

    Danny
     
  5. LOWGUN

    LOWGUN TS Member

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    Danny, in your state you can go to DMV and obtain with little documentation a State ID. Not a drivers license. That way when your cold dead body is found they can ID you and send you home to moma. Mike
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Maybe some or most of that concern oughta be applied to our borders? "Don't leave home without your papers". Police could nab a ton in a school zone carrying back-packs without ID? Hap
     
  7. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Here's the original thread. Some posts are now missing. I'll try to find the links.

    Jerry, schools are different, just talking about walking around in the general public.

    Danny
     
  8. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    It appears that NC, my home state, does not have a stop-and-identify law.

    Danny
     
  9. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Fred

    Thank you for your service to your community.

    I DO spend a lot of time with the knuckle draggers, because that is where I get the best and most current training and info about court cases. Folks don't like them, until the feces hits the rotating blades. Then, you thank the Lord they are there, or that you have much of the training they do.

    The average bear does not want to train for the unthinkable.

    Two weeks ago, we had a crazy go into a church in East Tenn with a firearm. Folks died!

    When we decided to come up with a proprietary security agency for our church, our Pastor was very uncomfortable with the whole idea.

    As one who will train and certify the Guards, and likely wear a Private Protective Security badge and gun (and vest) at my church, we can both bet who the good Pastor will want to stand in front of him if the wolf comes to the door!
     
  10. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Shooting Coach,

    My state does not have a "stop-and-identify" law. The SCOTUS ruling was for a Nevada law upholding Nevada's s&id law.

    From a strictly legal standpoint, LEO cannot walk up to you on the street and force you to produce ID in my state. The "Terry Frisk" law has to do with cases where LEO has a reasonable suspicion that you are doing something wrong, or are about to do something wrong.

    That all gets me around to my original question under 287(g). LEO stops a car driven by a Mexican man. The driver produces license and registration, which appear valid. There are four other passengers, all wearing seat belts, and all four appear to be Mexicans.

    Can the LEO require ID from the passengers, under suspicion of illegal immigration? Does 287(g) confer some special powers to LEO which would trump the 4th Amendment rights of the passengers?

    Although I'm concerned about 1) terrorism and 2) illegal immigration, I am also concerned with loss of rights, real or perceived, under the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

    Danny

    P.S. I would almost never fail to produce ID when asked. I can't think of a circumstance under which I would refuse to product it.
     
  11. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Danny

    Under 287 G as used in my home city of Nashville, it is not applied until a person is arrested and transferred to the custody of the Sheriff's Dept. Here, they are the ones trained with a MOE (memorandum of agreement) to use training provided by ICE.

    An answer to your question would be, it depends on the state and county govt' and their agreement with ICE.

    In Nashville, Terry is used to cover many bases. As you probably know, or should, a police officer is NOT required to be an expert in this law to use it. If the cop says you acted "in a nervous and agitated manner", you did. If he says you were driving in a manner contrary to the safety of the community, you were.

    If he says you had a bulge in your shirt or pants, you did.

    At least it works that way in the Deep South. LOL
     
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