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Open question......why did Winchester do it?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Holypatterns, Aug 21, 2007.

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  1. Holypatterns

    Holypatterns TS Member

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    Why did Winchester abandon the almost perfect AA hull and go to the two-piece
    hull? Almost certainly it was to save money, but what could be cheaper to make than the one-piece tapered hull?white plastic insert It had everything going for it. I've not had any real problems with the new style, except that on occasion the sharp edge of the shotcup gas seal would engage the upper edge of the white plastic insert and result in a buckled hull. I do believe that the grade of plastic used now is inferior, sometimes splitting after the second reload.
     
  2. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    Why are you asking us- why not ask Winchester? All we can do is exactly what you can do- speculate and babble.
     
  3. Didreckson

    Didreckson Active Member

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    Let me sound off on this, as I have a dog in this fight.

    I shot trap a few times in the mid 80's, but between family and career, never was able to take it up on any serious or consistent basis. The AA hull was without a doubt the defacto standard, and all others were a distant second place, so far back you could not even see them.

    When I got back into shooting a bit over a year ago or so, I bought 10 cases of AA's, thinking I had the same quality hull to reload as it was in the 80's. Not even close.

    So, I have abandon the AA's in favor of STS and Nitro hulls, which I purchased 7500 of those in one shot, and they reload simply terrific. If Winchester had kept the original AA, no doubt those 7500 and many more in the future would be red, not green or gold.

    Some "expert" at Winchester no doubt had a money saving idea, which cost Winchester my business, and based on what I see around the gun clubs, there has been a huge shift on market share due to their new 2 piece design.
     
  4. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    What problems are ya having reloading the new hull? I just load em all the same, didn't know there was a difference.
     
  5. AAA 27 AAA

    AAA 27 AAA TS Member

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    Economics most likely, but then again, I'm sure they heard a lot of complaining about the old hull splitting and decided to change. WHO KNOWS. I for one do not like the new hull versus the old for the same reasons you mention. I still shoot Winchester and mingle in plastic Federal Gold Medal from time to time (a great reloading hull). I'll continue to shoot Winchester, just won't reload the hull as many times as before. My experience has been after 5 reloads the hull will sometimes buckle at the collar.

    Either way, Winchester, Remington, Federal better do something to fight inflation or the little guus like Rio, Estate etc will take over. I for one have tried the off brands and do not like the inconsistency in speed.

    TRAPPS
     
  6. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$and$
     
  7. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    I was at a SHOT Show a few years back and the reason I was given was the tooling cost to replace the exisiting dies. They went to a two piece design for cost saving.

    Jay
     
  8. R_T

    R_T TS Member

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    Winchester reported that the tooling that produced the 1-piece hull had passed the end of its service life and needed to be replaced. Replacing it with similar, custom-built equipment would have been excessively expensive so they decided to use the less costly and now-more-common tooling that produces 2 piece hulls.

    Michael
     
  9. TC

    TC TS Member

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    Yup, saved money using common tooling, and made up for it by losing customers and market share. It's the new and improved American way!
     
  10. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    holypatterns:

    Many of us remember that the last old style AA hulls coming off the production lines (using the old dies) often split completely up the side when the factory load was fired. They were unsuitable for even one reloading. Olin had no choice but to do something about the worn out tooling.

    The new style hulls result in factory loads that are as good as ever. Their suitability for multiple reloads is clearly inferior to the old style hulls.

    Many of us also know Olin produced a limited number of reloading components but they were never much interested in the reloading market.

    sissy
     
  11. TC

    TC TS Member

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    The splitting was due to incorrect processing during molding of the hull. This can be controlled during manufacturing.
     
  12. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    New Coke vs old Coke. Some suit made a decision based on bean counters, not what the customers wanted.
     
  13. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Just shoot STS.. They're just a copy of the old 60's AA's
     
  14. TC

    TC TS Member

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    221, I would submit this is recent data, the change was made several years ago. I was referring to market share of target ammunition. Olin is the largest supplier of munitions to the military as well as numerous other countries.
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I have been told numerous times by many different people form Rem. Win. and Fed. that their premium shotgun shell market ranges around 5-6% of their total shotgun shell market.

    After making a few minor adjustments to my press, I have no difficulty in reloading the new AA hulls.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Yes, It was chickenshit for them to spend 25 years telling us the one pice hull was best, and bottom lining to the 2 piece when it was to their advantage.
    The new machinery was, indeed a cost saving.

    Maybe they should have contracted out to Remington.

    That said, the new ones reload good and last longer than the old.

    Target shells are not their hot item. Cheapie promo shells are the most selling shotshells. So it wasn't like they were going to hurt the bottom line.

    AHM
     
  17. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Think back. During the last few years W-W was producing classic AA hulls folks weren't happy with their quality. STS had become the preferred reloading hull, and STS certainly grabbed a lot of market share from AAs.

    I'm told by shooting friends in the plastics industry that STS technology, i.e. chemistry, physics, engineering, production process, is different from the old AA process.

    When it came time for WW to replace their equipment, WW replaced it with equipment that used this new technology. Problem was this new process did not produce a hull with the classic AA internal contour. Consequently the decision to add the extra piece to preserve the classic internal shape.
     
  18. Hitapair

    Hitapair Active Member

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    I don't know if Gamaliels releases info on how many of each brand sold at the Grand, but the last several years at Vandalia, AA's had fallen from their #1 spot and were way behind Remington.
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Hitapair is correct. For many years, Winchester was by far the leading seller at the Grand. They lost this place the last two years the ATA sold shells at the Grand.

    Wounder what Remington will do when their current hull molds are no longer serviceable? Considering their current financial position, they may be more concerned with profit than the kind of hulls we like.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Pat Ireland - "Wounder what Remington will do when their current hull molds are no longer serviceable? Considering their current financial position, they may be more concerned with profit than the kind of hulls we like."

    I wonder (worry) about that too. I asked a friend that did some work with Remington on their Steel Target loads a few years ago how that was going. His reply was do not expect the Remington we have today to put any resources toward that project...nor to expect Remington to invest anything in projects that don't provide immediate improvement to cash flow and bottom line.
     
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