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One Eyed Shooter & POI

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by blade819, Jun 5, 2008.

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  1. blade819

    blade819 Well-Known Member

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    I finally got my K80 Trap Special shooting the way I wanted and ran up some decent scores. Before I go off to the NC & Ohio State shoots next week, I thought I'd take the gun to the range yesterday morning and see where the POI was after tinkering with the gun for a couple of months. Startling to say the least. It was 100% / 0% and as they say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" so I won't touch it. The "BOOK" says...one eyed shooter = flat POI. I guess we all shoulld learn to not believe everything that the "book" says, huh?
     
  2. N. J. BOB

    N. J. BOB Active Member

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    The POI can be 1" or 12' high at lets say 20 yards but a sight picture is something altoghter different. I thought that we all developed our own individual sight picture and that between that and our individual speed of movement we required a higher or lower POI ?????? I just don't know if one eye or two eyes make any difference as to the height of your POI???
     
  3. blade819

    blade819 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the comment. Something to think about.
     
  4. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    I never saw that in any book. What book? HMB
     
  5. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    I'd also like to know what book you found this in. I'm a one-eyed shooter and my POI is now set at 80/20. I would literally fall over if my POI was 50/50 and I had to cover the target.
     
  6. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

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    I do not know anywhere in print about a flat POI. However it is a general rule of thumb that a one eye shooter holding on the house, may have a lower POI due to built in gun movement. I have always been one eye for 20 years. I shoot about 55/45. Your POI will vary, you need to find out what your eye wants too see.......

    GS
     
  7. blade819

    blade819 Well-Known Member

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    Various Trap Shooting Books state that a one eye shooter, in this (my)case a left eye dominant right hand shooter, is best to shoot a flat 50/50 poi (or maybe a little higher)and a low at the top edge of the house gun hold. If you look hard enough, perhaps even look it up on this site, I'll bet you can find such advise. Now,I don't believe that I read, saw or heard anyone saying that you shouldn't raise the POI or raise the gun hold to fit your style or comfort. As a fairly new shooter I even started a thread concerning this subject about 2 months ago. I would love to hear Phil Kiner's opinion on this. (if you read this jump in Phil). Anyway, as new as I am to at least the competitive side of trap shooting, I constantly read or post on this site to solicit opinions/advise.
     
  8. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    blade, low hold yes; 50/50 no unless you swing really fast.

    I just became a 1-eyed shooter. I tried 50/50 (inadvertently) and scored in the 70s for singles, caps and doubles. All I could do was chip targets. The next day I shot for POI and found I was 1" high at 20 yards. I added 4mm spaces to my comb and immediately began smoking them. That additional 5" high @ 40 yards made all the difference in the word. After shooting today I believe I need it a touch higher still. So next time out I'll add 2mm. That will give me a POI of 9.5" high @ 40 yards. That's an 80/20 gun measured the old way, and I consider that a pretty flat shooting gun. I used to shoot 22" high @ 40 yards.

    BTW, there is no rule that says 1-eyed shooters can't shoot a high POI. That's bull. You can't AIM 1-eyed with a 22" high POI, but you certainly can shoot it well on auto-pilot.

    That being said, I am having better luck with the flatter shooting gun. Now that I'm 1-eyed i clearly see the bead. It's a friggin baseball on the end of the barrel. Now that I see the bead (and can't not see it) my brain cannot compute when it sees so much daylight under the target. I keeps telling me to put the bead on the bird and fire. To do that and break the bird, I need an 80/20 shooter, or 9" high @ 40 yards. I may experiment later, but right now I'm trying to get used to shooting 1-eyed.
     
  9. N. J. BOB

    N. J. BOB Active Member

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    So all in all I am right on point, yes - No ????
     
  10. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    blade819

    You wrote: "Various Trap Shooting Books state that a one eye shooter, in this (my)case a left eye dominant right hand shooter, is best to shoot a flat 50/50 poi (or maybe a little higher)...."

    Could you name one, please?
     
  11. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I have a first edition "You and the Target" by Kay Ohye where he states that a one eyed shooter would be better off with a lower POI. I watched Kay shoot Handicap a year and a half ago and saw that he holds a very high gun over the traphouse. I asked Kay why he has the Rib Blinder on his gun and Kay said that he doesn't really know if he has ever crossfired but if the Rib Blinder would get him one extra target Why Not use it.
     
  12. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    If you are going to keep the target above the bead, why do you need any of the pattern below the target? Makes no sense. I don't think swinging the gun up through the target before you fire is a method for success.
     
  13. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    ZZT - It didn't escape my notice you may be struggling with cross-eye dominance because in your posts in the past, you have generously helped folks look for devices to alleviate the problem. It is interesting to see you come full circle to being a one-eyed shooter again. Perhaps you can expand on your experiences with trying to use both eyes, I would be much interested to hear about them because I also started down that same path but stopped after a time.

    I know what you mean about going to one eye and now the bead stands out like a baseball which duplicates my own experiences. I have a copy of "The Little Trapshooting Book" by Frank Little and though he does not address the POI for one-eyed shooters, he does talk about the "bird-bead" relationship and not pulling the trigger until you get the correct sight picture. This is a distinct difference between what I hear so often on trapshooters.com regarding the use of beads - the AA guys all seem to say they never see the beads, they shoot where they look. My bead looks like a baseball to me too and I cannot ignore that "bird-bead" relationship because when it is right, I smoke the targets. When I was using two eyes, I could barely see the front bead and would have to shoot where I was looking. This worked for me for much of the time, but I found it difficult to get consistent enough and when I missed, I didn't have a clue as to why because there was no reference point for the gun. With one eye, you can usually figure it out because it is easier to see the front bead even though it isn't your focus - the target is (as it should be) and I am paying attention to that "bird-bead" relationship.

    My question to you is, do you call for the bird with both eyes open and then shut one before firing the gun, or do you close an eye before calling?

    But back to the question of this thread, POI vs one-eyed shooters, I think the only difference one eye makes is where you hold on the house before calling for the target. The critical piece here is you have to see the bird before you can move the gun to the target so that much is critical and using a single eye, it is a little more of a challenge than with both. The two-eyed guys can hold higher and even above the house so their target acquisition can be faster. Since I use one eye, I have to hold lower on the house which takes more time to get onto the target. What that means to me is by the time I acquire the target, move to shoot, then pull the trigger, the target trajectory has flattened out a bit and I can therefore use a flatter shooting gun. Conversely, if I were using both eyes or could somehow get really fast onto the target while it is still rising quickly, I could use a gun that shoots a higher POI.

    I hope this helps and if I'm wrong here, please feel free to tell me why.

    Mike
     
  14. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    miketmx

    I can't find where Kay states what a one-eyed shooter's point of impact SHOULD be. In the first edition, he says, "Find the proper point of impact that is appropriate for your style of shooting." In the second edition, "Most one-eyed shooters shoot a 50/50 or 60/40 point of impact. Although two-eyed shooters have the option to shoot many different points of impact, most two-eyed shooters, including myself, shoot 60/40 or 70/30."

    Kay certainly says a one-eyed shooter should have a lower hold point on the house, but in thinking about this thread, it occurred to me that I can't recall him ever discussing POI in all the clinics I've taken from him.
     
  15. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    blade819, it's very possible that a high POI may not work for you with another gun. Your gun is very quick in getting the shot out of the barrel, quicker than most.

    What type of gun did you shoot prior and what was it's POI? Hap
     
  16. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Tom, you are correct. I just found my first edition written in 1978 and I could Not find any place where Kay mentioned POI for a one eyed shooter. I do know that Kay is a two eyed shooter and when I took a clinic in 1986 Nora (Martin) Ross was assisting Kay and of course she is a top one eyed shooter. I myself may soon be joining the ranks of one eyed shooters with the tape patch on my off eye lens because I am now having so much difficulty getting a sight picture with both eyes open.
     
  17. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Mike, I'm not cross eye dominant, I'm neither eye dominant. Mostly, neither eye asserts dominance and I just shoot in the middle. When either eye takes over I shoot to that side (an almost always miss). I found that holding low on the house, looking well above, and shooting a high POI (22"@40yd) I did pretty well. The reason was that since I couldn't see any part of the barrel in my core vision, neither eye took over.

    That worked for a while, but I wanted to shoot better. I took a 2-day Kiner clinic and learned a lot. I tried everything he suggested, and I gave it a fair trial. A lot worked, and some things didn't. I later figured that if I could hold a high gun my move to target would be much smaller, and there would be less time for either eye to assert itself. It was more of a see-poke move. It worked.

    Harlan Campbell uses that method, so I decided to take a 2-day clinic with him. It took me 4 months to sort of master his technique, then 6 months to unlearn it once I decided it was not going to do what I wanted. I was death on angles from 1 and 5, but missed straight aways because I didn't pick them up in time. I'm still not fully back to whatever "normal" was.

    I decided to give the glow worms a try again. I bought Easy Hits. Fantastic product, but didn't work for me. It introduced other errors like bead checking, but did not eliminate cross shooting. It also wrecked me for shooting a high POI. So I started shooting lower and lower POIs.

    While i was still adjusting to all of this I took a refresher clinic with Phil. Once again he told me I was cross firing a lot. I knew I was, because I had learned to spot it. I could see the barrel jerk to the left just as I fired. We tried the tape on the glasses routing that hadn't worked at the last clinic. All of a sudden I was jerking the barrel left just as I fired at every target and breaking them. That hadn't happened last time, which was why I stayed 2-eyed. So I figured my subconscious was finally picking this up and adjusting for it. That turned out to be the case, so I'm trying to learn 1-eyed shooting.

    I knew I was peripherally aware of the bead 2-eyed, but it must have registered more than I realized. If I don't remember to aim, my brain puts the bead to the right of the bird. That's what my right eye saw 2-eyed. What pisses me off is I clearly see the bead and the bird 1-eyed, and see the bead is off, but I pull the trigger anyway. Aiming 1-eyed is easy, but getting my subconscious used to it is going to take time.

    I tried calling with both eyes open and closing the left just before i shot. It works great just as long as you get the left eye fully shut. If you don't, you miss. I'm experimenting with magic dots, tape and completely blacked out lens. Completely blacked out gives me a headache. The magic dot works as long as I put two of them on side by side. Phil told me that if my left eye got so much as a peak at he target it would influence. He was right. I get a much clearer view with my left eye closed, but i have trouble picking up the targets when conditions are not perfect. The magic dots or tape help in that regard, but I have real problems picking up left going targets.
     
  18. Jerry944t

    Jerry944t Well-Known Member

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    Goose2 has it right. There are no "rules" of POI and how many eyes you can successfully utilize. You do what works best.

    I am a reasonably competent one eyed shooter and shoot a gun that is 100% high. I can do decently with a friend's gun that shoots about 120%. He happens to use both eyes. I know many 2 eyed shooters that can't shoot a gun that high and I likewise know one eyed shooters that like flat guns.

    The easy way to tell is to lock the trap on straights and keep adjusting until you consistently get smoke. When that happens there's a decent chance your gun is shooting fine for you.

    There is no mystery and there are no rules. Take that to the bank.

    Jerry
     
  19. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    miketmx

    I'm a one-eyed shooter, and use a small Magic Dot on my left lens for both trap and low gun sporting clays. In one of his last clinics just months before he disappeared, the late Ed Scherer convinced me that smaller was better.

    It bothers me that I don't understand Phil Kiner's ideas on blocking the dominant off eye.

    Best of luck, Tom
     
  20. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Tom and ZZT be on the lookout for a PM.
     
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