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? on sight picture - patterning of gun

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Harty, Dec 26, 2008.

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  1. Harty

    Harty TS Member

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    Ok... I am new to trap and have only shot several rounds so far but I am really enjoying it and look forward to participating more in the coming year. After reading the threads about patterning your shotgun I decided to give it a try yesterday. I was surprised to find that at 13 yards the pattern shot left about three inches. I am shooting a trap gun with an adjustable stock so I adjusted the stock to where the gun was shooting centered and high. However, what I am concerned about is that I do have a mid bead on the rib and now my sight picture the beads are not lined up at all. the mid bead is to the left and thus not giving me a figure 8.... Should I have adjusted something else other than the cheek piece... i.e. adjusted with shims to change the whole position the butt stock? I assume this is not right..... What should I have adjusted.. FWIW I am shooting a 391 Teknys gold Target...

    Previously when I shot, I was breaking clays but certainly not dusting them... I averaged 22 to 23 out of 25 but it always seemed I was barely breaking the targets...

    Your input would be greatly appreciated....

    BTW.... I have really enjoyed the forum...
     
  2. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    It could be that you're rolling your face over the top of the comb to the right (assuming you're a righty) causing you to see the center bead more to the left. What's strange is that you say that your pattern is now centered after adjustments. I would suggest you try to move your cheek a little to the left so you can line up the beads and work from there.

    Eric
     
  3. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    "Previously when I shot, I was breaking clays but certainly not dusting them... I averaged 22 to 23 out of 25 but it always seemed I was barely breaking the targets... "

    What choke are you using? Sounds like it might be a bit too open, if it's a modified choke go up to an improved modified or full choke.

    OTOH if it's a full choke it could be that you're not centering the pattern. Go to a patterning board, shoot at an aiming point from 30-35 yards and see what that tells you.

    Eric
     
  4. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    dusting a target means a miss, knocking a little paint off, not breaking it.
     
  5. otnot

    otnot Active Member

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    That middle bead has caused more confusion than it has ever helped. A shotgun is pointed not aimed so forget what it looks like looking down the barrel as long as it shoots where your looking.
     
  6. Harty

    Harty TS Member

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    I have been shooting an improved mod comp-n-choke but I had alredy planned to try the full version next to see if this helps...

    I probably am rolling my cheek over...


    I might be over thinking this, I guess I will have to see how I shot this weekend....


    sory about the the busting confusion... I am just starting to learn this sport..
     
  7. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Harty, if you don't ask, you'll have to learn the hard way. otnot got it right, but there is more to it.

    If you line up your beads and the barrel shoots right or left you have a gun problem. Since it's a Beretta, I think it is more likely the choke than the barrel. You have some work to do to find out.

    The easiest way to check out your gun is from a rest at short yardage (13-15 yards, not more than 20). Line up the beads just like you were shooting a rifle. Squeeze the trigger and see where the shot landed vis-a-vis your aiming point. Do this until you are sure you can say with confidence that this choke/barrel shoots x high and y wide. Let's use your IM comp-n-choke. You say it shoots 3" left at 13. OK, now try all your chokes. I'll bet you find they don't all impact at the same spot. When I tried by Beretta chokes, only 2 out of the 6 provided shot to the same Point of Impact (POI).

    Mark all the chokes that shoot to the same POI and discard the rest. Let's say you have three good chokes. If they all centered on your aiming point, you are good to go. If the didn't, one of two things is wrong. Either your barrel is bent or the choke tubes threads were not cut concentric with the bore. In either case, you'll have to decide what to do about it.

    3" in 13 yards is waay off. If the barrel was bent that much you would easily see it. That leaves the choke tube threads as the likely culprit. Briley can rebore and cut new threads for their long choke tubes. It is not that expensive, and you will end up with a barrel that shoots where it is supposed to. Plus, it will pattern much better than the tubes that came with it. Check to see if the barrel is straight first. Take it to a gunsmith if you are not sure.
     
  8. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Just to add one more thing to what ZZ said. Sometimes a rib can be installed off center at the end of the barrel also. I know, I had one of those. Hap
     
  9. Harty

    Harty TS Member

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    zzt.. thanks for the input... I did not try differnt choke tubes... Honestly I never knew different tubes would shot to differnt POI. I will try that first. The barrel does not look bent in any fasion.... (i did shot at 13 yards and from a rest thanks to info on this forum as to the best manner to do this)

    As to Map Mec Tweaks comment... The gun does have interchanble ribs so they can be taken off and replaced with others. it comes with a 50/50 and a 70/30 which I have installed... I will also try the other rib just to see if that makes any differnce....
     
  10. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Harty, I know others say differently, but I only shoot from a rest when I want to see if the gun/barrel/choke shoots straight. Once I know the equipment is right, I want to see where I shoot the gun. I do that standing up and holding the gun just like I do on the line. For me, the POI from a bench rest is always different than when standing. Since I shoot standing, that's what I care about.
     
  11. Harty

    Harty TS Member

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    I will try both tomorrow before I go shot a few rounds of trap....

    One other thought I had this evening when thinking of things.... I am trying to start shooting with both eyes open... I have found that when I get lined up with one eye & then open the other the front bead & the target do not change in my sight picture so I hope it is going to be an "easier" change... With that said... if I can get to where I am shooting with both eye open the whole Mid Bead thing is irrelevant anyway...


    Again.... Thanks for the input
     
  12. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    zzt and a host of others hepled me with this a few years back. If you know match rifle shooters they can be very helpful in the bench testing bead/barrel alignment. ZZT points out a problem/solution that I finally accepted. Forget the middle bead. Bench test your gun and all your chokes, believe me you will find some chokes are just poor with alignment and constriction also. I weeded out 3 bad chokes in my collection, now with the POA settled POI was then adjusted to shoot where I am looking. Try this, black out the center bead. With my PFS installed me beads are no longer aligned, the front optic bead broke several months ago, I have yet to replace it. I dont really miss it, unless I think about it. My 870 express that I started with has no center bead and a well case worn front bead. I have just as many 25s with that as my XT.
     
  13. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    When you do your POI testing try it using one eye and then using both eyes. See if the POI is the same. You might get surprising results. I know I did. HMB
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    One more point- Shoot several 13 yard targets from a rest to see where the gun is shooting. I like to shoot 10 targets. Five is a minimum. Out of 10 targets I will consistently pull one or two shots off to the right or left. Make sure the mid bead and the front sight are aligned, not a figure 8 but in a straight line with your eye. This test only tells you where the gun shoots. It will not tell you how you shoot the gun.

    My gun shoots high on paper but on the line, I often shoot under targets. I do not need to change my gun, I need to change me. But, I can't figure out which screws to turn and which way to turn them to fix me.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    It might be easier to fix the gun. HMB
     
  16. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Pat, you have the answer to your mysterious missing problem right there!!

    "Out of 10 targets I will consistently pull one or two shots off to the right or left."

    If off by even a little at that distance, multiply that by 3 or 4 times and know how far you'd miss on a moving target too. Same for your high shooting gun shooting under rising clays too? The experts say trap targets is a game of inches, not feet, in pointing them correctly, or so I hear. I'll send you the bill later today after my quail hunt. :) Hap
     
  17. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    But then on the other hand you could try giving the left screw a quarter turn to the right. HMB
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Harty

    Harty TS Member

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    Well everything was good today... I did not shoot off of a rest this time and everything was pretty close to perfect..... Strange... I guess that yesterday was "one of those days..."

    I ignored the mid bead and just shot with both eyes open and one eye closed... shot the same both ways which is good... I'm really going to work on the two eyes open thing..

    thanks for everyones input.
     
  19. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Since the gun shots where you are looking, you should be sucessful using two eyes. HMB
     
  20. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Harty,

    You may already now this, I believe all the Urika's have adjustment shims in the stocks. If your gun is shooting 3 " left, it could be you have the shims backwards. There are two of them, one at the nut, and one at the rear of the receiver. they must be installed correctly. They are marked "S" (Sinistra, left hand) and "D" (dexter, right handed).

    that adjusts your cast on (for lefties) and cast off (for righties). flipping them upside down will change your buttstock height. Then you can tweak with the adjustable comb. Sooo, make sure when looking from the buttstock, you see Double D's,,, no, not that kind, lol...

    Just a thought...Give "Tron" a call, he'll help you out...
    Search the forum for "tron" he's our resident 390/391 guru....
     
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