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On Holds: Question

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Chango2, May 10, 2010.

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  1. Chango2

    Chango2 Active Member

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    Question: Why is it that hold height over the house is important? I often forget to move the gun up high or low depending on target height. I have a hard time accepting hold height as proper technique; I keep thinking that a sight picture is a sight picture is a sight picture no matter where and how the gun is moved. In application, 'taint so.

    Perhaps somebody can explain..I have difficulties accpeting this, although intellectually I know it is true 'cause it works better "that" way. But I just don't understand the why and how and hence don't internalize it like "head on the stock"...etc.

    Also, anybody can offer advice for shooting in windy condtions? Any general technique to stay with to live and die on during a windy condtion? So windy that one is rocked a bit on his/her heels.

    Thanks in advance,

    David
     
  2. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    David..... I'll share with you what I believe and you can take it from there. Where you hold your gun over the house is, indeed, very important. The number one concern is using a gun hold that gives you the very best view of the target as it comes out of the house. Depending on your hold, you could actually be blocking out the target leaving the house by your barrel. This will give the target 5-8' of a jump on you before you even pick it up. It is important that you let the target clear the barrel before moving your gun, however, it is also important that you pick up the target leaving the house to get a general idea of what the angle will be. Frank Little covers this, and upward gun movement, in great detail, in his book, "The Little Trapshooting Book". One with the most logical reasoning for maximixing your gun hold.....

    As for shooting in the wind, I have found that, for me, it is much easier to shoot in a driving wind using a top single gun with the rib close to the barrel than it is shooting an unsingle or a high ribbed gun. I seem to have more control over the gun, and the shot, using this gun. I can just stay in the gun better. I also find it to be an advantage to widen my stance in the wind. Depending on the force of the wind, it will dictate how much wider I will open my stance. This makes me much more stable against the wind and allows me to have better gun control..... Just my thoughts.... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  3. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Dan. You must have a good look at the target prior to any movement. Get that shotgun barrel out of your eye's way of clearly seeing it leave the roof line! First glimpse tells you the angle and what's necessary to make a connection.

    A lot of reloading manuals have a section explaining wind velocity effect at various yardages and speeds. Better yet, set up your patterning board and test your pet load in a stiff cross winds! It's sometimes possible to miss an entire sheet of plywood aiming a centered spot depending on the winds velocity!! Even a mild 10 mph breeze will drift the shot pattern several inches at 40 yards!! Once you see for yourself what's happening at various velocities, you'll be better equipped for wind shooting. Sometimes it's very hard to hold that far off a target in order to break them!! It will surprise you!

    Hap
     
  4. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    I also agree with Dan.. And.. remember.. don't shoot the call...The barrel should not begin to move until you SEE the target.. reaction time is about 1/10th of a second.. The time between seeing the target and your ability to move the barrel.. In that time..your fire control system can decide what path the target is taking..and no motion or time is lost correcting a path that's not correct..

    The gun MUST move faster to catch the target.. and that action develops your swing.. As you approach the target with a faster moving gun.. again.. reaction time is about 1/10th of a second.. the visual of the barrel to bird relationship.. once impressed upon your memory will last you forever.. or until the target speed changes..OR you forget..

    you "think" you shot at the target.. but the reality is.. the faster moving gun was infront of the bird before you pulled the trigger..

    From a high hold point.. this "swing" can never get established.. That's my worthless .02 cents.. how I was taught to shoot..

    All Good.. Mike
     
  5. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    David.. On a really windy day.. when the birds are all over the place.. I drop my hold point to establish an even quicker swing.. and approach to the target.. I don't give the target time to dance... To someone not use to my style.. it appears to be spot shooting..very close in to the house.. but in reality.. its a very quick.. calculated approach to the target.. It works..all the way back to the parking lot.. and everything in the middle..
     
  6. Ray Collins

    Ray Collins Active Member

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    How about input on where you set up on station #5, ie, how far off the end of the house--if at all?

    Ray
     
  7. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Ray..... Here again, you must set up so that your vision is not obstructed by the barrel as the target leaves the house. I'm left handed, and I hold about 6" in from the far right corner, and about a foot high over the trap on post 5. This allows me to visually see the target emerge from the house, and I'm holding low enough that I'm always under the target as I swing to it and don't lose sight of it. Many shooters hold off the corners on post 1 and 5 in an attempt to "cut off", or shorten their move to a hard angle target. This sometimes will work, but, the trade-off is making a very bad move to a straight away and shooting right alongside of it, or over it, because you did not see it correctly and jumped on it. Remember that you will probably get only 2 hard angle targets out of 10 from post 1 or 5 so you are statistically ahead of the game setting up for the easier target and still allowing yourself the advantage of seeing that hard angle leave the house...... Dan
     
  8. Ray Collins

    Ray Collins Active Member

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    Thanks Dan; I have been holding about 3' or 4' off the right corner and looking back to the house(without moving my gun)on #5. Sounds as though this may be a little extreme...

    Ray
     
  9. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    3 to 4 feet is too far right for consistently making all the shots from station 5. With that hold, it does make for less right movement on the extreme rights but it will cost you on the others. Why? Study how the traps are set to throw the most severe angles from 1 and 5. Most ATA clubs will set targets at 17 degrees + or - off the center of station 3. That means you'd have to step in toward station 3 approximately 3 feet to see a true straight away from both stations 1 or 5 to see a true away straight target!! Wrap your mind around all targets from those 2 stations must be lead on the angling side will help overall. That certainly doesn't mean that a target can't come out as a true straight though so watch for it! Mis-reading an angle by a few inches means mis-pointing it also to hear the lost word. Trap is a game of inches, not feet. As with most styles of shotgunning, there are exceptions to most everything that works well for some.

    Hap
     
  10. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Hap,

    "It's sometimes possible to miss an entire sheet of plywood aiming a centered spot depending on the winds velocity!!"

    If the shot has moved over 24" during the time it travels 30-40 yards, what is the wind speed, and how far will the clay bird have moved? Will the clay target have been more or less affected by the crosswind?


    Chango,

    Do not add "Kentucky windage" to compensate for wind. You will have a sufficient challenge staying in the gun and pointing the bird without attempting to figure lead due to wind. Dan gave good advice.

    Don Verna
     
  11. Big Az Al

    Big Az Al Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Dan, Hap and Mike,

    The one thing not mentioned is for those of us with a tendency to raise our heads, anytime the bird is hidden by the barrel or more of the gun,

    it raises the probabilty of percentages to an almost surity, that I will lift my head to see the bird better!

    Holding the house so the bird comes out above the gun, and holding still until the bird is IN sight, helps keep my head on the wood.

    And while I know that 3 hard rights off post five is supposed to be about the most, with any more a rarity and I have gone 5 for 5 on hardrights from post 5,one of those times is another story and a good memory a briar patch moment(please don't throw a hard right, please please please don't throw me another ................), sitting on the hard right is a recipe for a miss, and I have cooked that miss up more then I really care to admitt to!

    Al

    By the way I Live for slow or no pulls! after all what better guage of the stillness of my hold, then actually moving(or not) before I saw the bird! No bird and the muzzle moved a foot or two or three! there is NO doubt about what I am doing!
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Don, wind speed really comes into play above 30-35 mph! Even up to that speed it does have some effect as mentioned in most good loading manuals.

    A clay target weighs around 4 ounces and is spinning at a high rate of RPMs when launched. High speed winds eventually overcome the clay and it follows the wind path for the most part. After the wind gets control of the clay, it could cause it to land two traps down the line! The individual shot in the charge act as does the clay but it must travel through the air farther than the clay at the time of shot. Shot will drift more than the clay at high wind velocities and makes for some really tough mind computing to break targets during those super high winds! At the distance the clay is shot, wind has more effect on the shot charge to that point only!! I learned to shoot trap targets when I lived in one of the windiest places in the country, Mojave,Ca.. There, a 30 mph wind is called a breezy day! I set up my backboards prior to hard winds to learn what was going on and learn I did! Unless you have experience in what wind does to both the target and shot charge, scores goes in the tank big time! Can you imagine having to hold 3 feet to the left side of a straight away from 3 to break it? I won a lot of money shooting in severe winds above 45 mph because of my want to learn. Britt Robinson is, was, one of the best shooters I've ever shot with during high winds! I shot singles with him at Bob Taylors years ago and he and I had the only two scores in the 90s, on singles! Britt shot a 95 and I had a 93! The wind that day probably had 60 mph + gusts! I have shot in hurricane force winds that registered 90 mph wind gusts at an airport very close by to the club! I managed to break an 87 and good friend broke an 83 with the remainder of scores in the 70s down to the teens!! Yeah, it is possible to miss an entire sheet of plywood due to wind drift, I know, I've done that!!

    Hap
     
  13. ddrsuz

    ddrsuz Member

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    What Trap2 said plus this........you questioned hold height and it is my experience that you want to hold as high as possible, but still maintain your sight of the bird and never go down to get a bird. If you choose the right height, you will be moving more side to side, not up and out. If the birds are set high or being thrown into a head wind, they may climb and you are better off starting from a high hold if you have to chase the birds. You just have to experiment to see what your reaction time and comforts are.

    Dennis
     
  14. Ray Collins

    Ray Collins Active Member

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    Thanks for the help guys.

    Ray
     
  15. himark

    himark Well-Known Member

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    I am no pro but will add one thing. IMO, once you have a consistant hold point and you have shot that way for quite sometime, then say you start changing that to a high hold and you start overrunning your targets. At least that is what happened to me after watching Harlan Campbells video and applying his technique. I suggest if you are going to change start changing slowly not so much at once. JMO.
     
  16. Chango2

    Chango2 Active Member

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    I am continuing to enjoy the input, the helpful input, from Hap and others. I do think that since some targets I shot at in the wind were dusted or merely danced, perhaps handicap loads of 7.5 shot would give a slight advantage.

    The shoot to which I am referring was at Palmdale, California, notriously windy sometimes. I did try various things, and, at one point, I had a 42/50 over two traps. Above par considering the conditions...that with a high hold. The high hold worked well until the last trap when I failed to bring the gun down and the targets were flat. I then shot an 18/25!!!

    Jimmy Heller, a perennial All-American, won this winter chain shoot handily with an 89. He seemed to shoot quickly, and, in most cases, before the target bounced. He did have trouble on his first trap, the most difficult one for the first and early squad, with a 19. I guess wind makes it hard for all!!!
     
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