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Olympic Trap, boy was I humbled

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by 20yard, May 17, 2010.

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  1. 20yard

    20yard TS Member

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    I had the chance to compete this last weekend in europe in olympic trap, and boy was I humbled. Does anyone here play both games and can shed some light on techniques differences. On American trap I can run a straight from the 16 yard line fairly often but I was lucky to get double digits on olympic trap. The birds are faster and even with a second shot found I was behind or the bird was far down range. I watched the winners shoot and the movement is very quick and it appears all use pull triggers. I'm hoping someone here has experince with both and can explain how to change style of shooting. It was 24 gram loads, high velocity shooting IM first shot TF second shot which seemed most were using.
     
  2. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't your fault. If you want to play that game you need a gun that is set up to shoot flat. You have to learn a different style shooting for those crazy angles. With a flat shooting gun you have to cover the rising targets, something you don't do in American trap where your gun has a built in lead, because all the targets are rising. HMB
     
  3. Hatshooter

    Hatshooter TS Member

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    difference between night & day. Olympic much harder, & you will not fall asleep doing it comparded to 16 yd targets. shoot the targets quicker, & most poi are 50/50 or 60/40.. Where in Europe did you shoot? I hear this is all they shoot in Europe, along with Sporting. Important to have a good setup, good vision & attack the target-- controlled aggression is what I call it.
     
  4. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    Do you want to shoot it again?

    Your experience is not dissimilar to a lot of ATA shooters who try international trap for the first time and never try it again. Which is a shame as there is a lot to learn about shooting from playing a variety of games.

    International trap is difficult for a reason, they don't hand out Olympic gold medals to duffers. And a perfect score 150/150 has not been shot.

    To shoot a clean round 25/25 is a big deal. At the national level it occurs less than 5% of the time at major competitions. In fact at the sping selection match held at Ft Benning earlier this year there were only 2 clean rounds shot. That's right, just 2 for the entire competition, men and women.

    The link I posted above is a great place to start reading up on the game. You can also visit the deadtargetschool which also contains some excellent reference information and training tools.

    The birds are faster - yes they are. ATA targets go 50 yards. International trap targets fly 83 yards. A competent bunker shooter will take the first bird around 35 yards and the 2nd shot (if required) will typically be another 13-15 yards downrange. Breaking targets at 50+ yards is a risky proposition at best so the first barrel break is key to success.

    Release triggers are not allowed in competition. Why? Because on a failure-to-fire the shooter is not allowed to open the gun, he must hand it to the referee who will attempt to fire the gun. IF it doesn't fire the referee will open the gun and determine the problem. A release trigger makes that handoff from shooter to referee a very unsafe procedure.

    And you have it right about the ammo and the chokes, Mod or IM first barrel to a tight full on the 2nd barrel and 24 gram high velocity shells.
     
  5. JoeBobOutfitters

    JoeBobOutfitters TS Member

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    I've shot a few rounds of true bunker trap at the Colorado Springs Olympic training center in March. It was definitely humbling! I've shot about 8 rounds total probably, and still find it hard to hit ~15. Speed is definitely the name of the game, and holding a low gun at the red spot that corresponds with each station.
     
  6. bluedsteel

    bluedsteel Member

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    I have shot ATA for several years, and bunker trap once, at Ft. Benning. I have been humbled at both games, but never like I was at bunker trap.

    I will tell you this, I fell in love with bunker trap. It is an awesome event....every shot is a spectacle and a thrill, unlike ATA where you just rattle off shots and break clays all day (mostly).

    My biggest disappointment was realizing that there are no bunker fields anywhere near where I live, so it was a "one time event' for me, unfortunately.

    bluedsteel
     
  7. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I was fortuante enough to get to watch the shooters from Colorado Springs when they were at Ben Avery due to be wintered out back in Colorado, and I have to tell you they are like watching poetry in motion ... What an awesome display of talent and each and everyone of them was polite and very open to talking to the shooters who were there watching them perform, they call it practice ... What a terrific bunch of young men and ladies, awesome ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  8. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    Here are two of the big issues for trap shooters coming over to bunker.

    1. Increased angle. From the 16 yard line the deep angle at bunker is 45 degrees. The deep angle at ATA is 17 degrees. Some will argue that the target setting permits a legal target to be set as deep as 27 degrees. Most competent ATA shooters can hit ALL the bunker targets inside of 30 degrees. It is that extra push to the outside that gets most shooters, that really deep angle requires way more movement than they're used to and the 35 - 45 degree targets have a very low hit percentage when analyzing scores from ATA shooters.

    2. Variable height. The ATA target is set at 10 yards out to a height of 9 ft. You see a lot of target face at that setting. The bunker target is set at roughly the same distance, 10 meters out but the height is anywhere from 1.5 meters to 3.5 meters. A bunker target thrown to a height of 1.5 meters is showing very little face, you break edge mostly.

    So when you get a target set at 1.5m and set at an angle of 45 degrees and that target has to fly 83 yards that thing is really moving fast. You better be ready when you call pull because that baby is out of there in a hurry. Maybe an even more difficult target is the 3.5 meter 45 degree target as there is a tremendous amount of vertical as well as horizontal movement, the target is not as fast and you see more target but there's so much movement to deal with that a lot of folks cannot handle the offside (right hand target to a right hand shooter).

    Bunker is extremely difficult and takes a huge committment to develop a high average. If you can average 96% you're world class. If you have an average of 96% in ATA singles you go home empty handed virtually every event you enter.
     
  9. pufftarget

    pufftarget Active Member

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    There are, in my opinion,three things that are critical for the beginning bunker shooter or more importantly,the ATA shooter trying bunker for the first time; the gun must shoot where you are looking and this does not necessitate a particular pattern percentage, you must soft focus in an area where the target does not get out of your periferal vision before you read it and react(you can be either too close or too far out and either will work sometimes but not for a full 25 targets), you must drive the front shoulder to the target and when you lock on visually pull the trigger (watching many shooters, a good move is made to the target but when the barrel reaches the target there is a period when the shooter tries to make the picture better, the barrel slows while the target doesn't and the target continues.
    A good visual pickup is absolutely essential. A good part of the reason the experienced bunker seems fast is because he has a good visual pickup of the target immediately as it leaves the bunker.
    The gun must absolutely shoot where you are looking because focus on the tatget is again absolutely essential.
    And you must be willing to pull the trigger when you visually lock on the target; if you try to control the gun target relationship you will slow down. And while this control can be attained to a degree with the more predictable and slower ATA target the bunker target carries its speed and will get away. Work on shooting the first barrel well then progress to staying in the gun,reacquire the target visually and shoot th second barrel with control. Good luck and I hope you have the opportunity to try it again.

    Chuck
     
  10. 20yard

    20yard TS Member

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    Thanks for the feedback and link to website. I shot at a club in Luxembourg (Differdange) and will shoot again, would just like to be competitive. I had two older guys look at my mount and they added a washer to the comb so I think I'm set at 60/40 but no paper to try out. Even with the TF choke on second shot I perceive the density is low at the distance I get that shot off and results in holes in my pattern. I notice quite a few shooters bang off two shots even when the bird is broken on the first shot, clearly committing to pulling the trigger and staying in the gun.
    Out of 50 shooters there was 1 with perfect score in each round, several 24s many 23s, I never got past 14 and even missed straight aways when birds were low. I think I need to get to range for training, fix on straight aways and figure out proper movement and sight picture for shot. I did also witness failue to fire, shooter raises arm and judge tries to fire, then bad shell was removed from gun and shot was repeated. Another time it was on 2nd shot, same thing for procedure however the shooter did not get another shot so not sure the rule.
     
  11. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    ffwildcat:

    Bunker is harder, but your analysis of ATA targets is flawed. You can't keep saying the ATA deep angle is 17 degrees and then compare it to bunker's angles. Well, you could I guess, but it is nonsense. In American trap, the "deep" angle changes on each post, at 1 and 5 it is way past 17 degrees (more than double that) to the shooter. In bunker, the max "deep" angle to the shooter (which is the only angle that matters in this discussion) remains constant because your position in relation to the traps never changes as you move. Speed and height variations are the biggest differences, and I still think speed kills.
     
  12. dolphin62

    dolphin62 Member

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    sounds like a lot of fun
     
  13. Mr.M

    Mr.M Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    Shot a lot of bunker in the seventies and eighties at Martinez and Chino, California and on the east coast at Quantico, Hackettstown, New Jersey, Cincinatti, Ohio, Fort Benning and the Beretta range at Prince Georges County range. Sold machines and controllers/microphone systems to many of these and others and shot a lot of targets while still shooting 10,000+ ATA style targets per year. My greatest accomplishment was actually making the cut to shoot the final day of the U. S. Championships at Fort Benning in 1982 or 1983.

    My observations are that the fourth factor is the one that gives most bunker shooters trouble. In International trap the four unknowns are angle, height, distance and speed. That makes the game a lot more reactive than the American style where the only unknown is angle. Even when shooting wobble trap as training for bunker, there are only two unknowns - angle and height - making it much easier than the "real deal. Evidence of that fact is the "66 straight" pin I wear on my bragging vest which I earned at the true wobble traps at both Peninsula Sportsmen's Club in Menlo Park, Ca. and Hackettstown, New Jersey which is right beside the lone 25 straight pin that I earned at Martinez in the early eighties.

    Gun of choice back then was a 29 1/2 inch IAB with 28 thousandths under and 40 thousandths over "harmonized" by Jack Seehase shooting 3 1/4 dram nickel-plated 1 1/8 ounce Remington high brass International shells that absolutely reduced the targets to dust. Still have the gun but that's another story for another time.

    Bunker requires that your head be absolutely empty and your eyes totally in control when you open your mouth. It is not a thinking man's game. The most frustrating target for me was always after a broken bird off the trap when I knew where the "shoot-over" was going. Great but humbling game that requires practice, practice and more practice driving through the target and staying with the gun.

    Mike Mann
     
  14. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    That FTF on the 2nd barrel is a tricky one.

    The rule is you get to repeat the target but you must miss it with the 1st barrel and only break the target with the 2nd barrel. This is a very difficult thing to do and we practice it and there is no clear technique for how to do it.

    What do you do, call pull and shoot immediately then track target for 2nd shot or call pull, shoot behind it and then catch target and shoot it?

    If you hit it with the 1st barrel the target is lost.

    And 870 - nonsense or not, I am not relying on anecdotal evidence. I have analyzed a LOT of ATA shooters scores and the deep angles kill them. If they were shooting deep angles in ATA then their hit ratio on bunker angles would be better then it is. The data doesn't lie. Outside of 30 degrees ATA shooters have almost no success - hit ratio drops to less than 20%.
     
  15. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    ff:

    FWIW, I'm not talking about your "analysis" of ATA shooters, just your misstatements about ATA angles. There is no analysis involved there, it is all plain to see and the "deep" are more than 34 degrees for purposes of the comparison you were making.

    Maybe you are correct that they have more trouble with the angles, but my opinion is skeet has some pretty good angles too, and bunker is still harder. My opinion, and that's all it is, is that the speed is more of an issue, at least for the better shooters.

    Honest question here: how are the angles in a bunker layout set? In other words, is it just up to the club or is there a scenario? Is it common to have at least two traps in the layout set to the 45 degree max? Is there always one at that angle, or is it possible none of them are set to the max?

    I am really going to make an effort to try real bunker sometime, it looks like a lot of fun to me, and yes I expect to shoot poorer scores than I do at ATA.
     
  16. pufftarget

    pufftarget Active Member

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    Per the rule book there are 9 "schemes". In a match the trapsare set to a randomlyselected one of those schemes at the beginning of the match and then changed periodically during the match to another scheme in accordance with the rule book. What is important, however is that each shooter sees 2 rights,2 olerts and 1 center trap target in some random order during a round keeping the game as fair as possible for all competitors as does the format of shooting through he bank of entries before beginning the next round of targets.

    My apologies if the following gets tedious. On my previous post i talked about the importance of focussing on the target. Two years ago I developed a distortion in the center of my vision in my right master eye due to a failure of the gel on the eye to separate from the macula. I continued to shoot, joking that I simply pulled the trigger when the target entered the blind spot and since this was the center of focus, of course the target broke. Surprisingly, my scores did not seem to suffer. Continued failure to seperate caused a macular hole which caused a more severe problem, but again the scores remained fairly steady. I had the eye operated on to close the hole but the distortion at the center did not go away. I continued to shoot while a cataract developed at an accelerated rate due to the co2 used as an aid in healing from the surgery. I took up shooting again when released by the doctor and saw a no decrease in my scores (86-88) average as the cataract worsened until I had it operated on. At the time, vision in my right eye was that ann 18" square sign at 55 yards went away in the center of my vision in the right eye. I should be their poster boy because after the cataract surgery I'm + .5 diopters in my right eye, effectively 20/20. My poiint through all this is that by having a gun I had confidence in and which fit, and not expecting to see a gun/target relationship but totally concentrating on focussing on the targe tand perceiving the target on exit from the bunker the condition of my master eye played a much less significant role in breaking a score. Best to all

    Chuck
     
  17. sernv99

    sernv99 Active Member

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    what's the standard bore size for use in Olympic Trap? I see a lot of used Perazzis set-up for Olympic Trap having barrels with bore size of 18.4
     
  18. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    Comming from someone who likes to think he pretty much knows about everything... When I got to bunker.. I quickly realized I don't know squat.. I went to Kerrville and trained with the best.. Angles.. ATA has NOTHING to compete with bunker angles.. speed.. dito.. You and your shotgun MUST be fast and accurate.. AND.. you'll need to shoot from your subconcious.. Foot position and hold points are critical.. I've shot everything from 7's to 24's.. Never ran a clean round.. and linger in the 14/18 bird range most of the time.. Sadly.. I only get to shoot bunker a few weeks out of every year..

    I love the sport.. the people around the world are great.. I wish I had a bunker field closer.. All Good.. Mike
     
  19. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    870 - as Chuck said the schemes are set according to 9 layouts in the rulebook. The link above takes you to a graphical representation of what those schemes look like to the shooter. An improvement to this would be a powerpoint slideshow that only showed those targets coming off each station but this graph of each scheme is a good start.

    I hope you get to try it sometime, it is a fabulous game and demands the very best of a shooter.

    You can also go look at the scores from the current world cup event in Dorset, England for some idea of the difficulty - these are the best shooters in the world and sometimes their scores go up and down.
     
  20. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks wildcat, right on point, that answers my questions.
     
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