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Older Remington All Americans.... What Primer?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by bud168, Jun 6, 2010.

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  1. bud168

    bud168 Member

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    Hey guys... I have a few thousands Remington All American hulls and wads, Id hate to just throw these away... Hulls are Blue and Green, they use the short wad.. I can barely fit a 209 primer in, it will go in about 85% then stop.. Was there a smaller primer that was used in these shells?

    - Kurt Nelson


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  2. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    97* was the factory primer. Remington 209P (sts?) would be close to that now. Any 209 sized primer will fit.

    Finding a wad that will fit with the high base-wad in those AAs could be a bit of a problem. Claybuster makes a clone of WAA12r that should work.

    If you are using a 650/Grabber/9000 you'll probably want to readjust your powder drop tube to accommodate those high base-wads too.
     
  3. Bruce Em

    Bruce Em Member

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    Mr Skeet has it right.

    You could sell them.

    regards
     
  4. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Kurt, read the posts in the thread I'm including. A lot of old Remmy hulls used the *57 primer. Smaller than the #209. Hope this helps......Wayne
     
  5. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Wayne has it right. Rem made 57 and 157 primers and CCI also made some 157 size primers. HMB
     
  6. OldRemFan

    OldRemFan Member

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    Quite a bit of loading information in the Lyman Shotshell Handbook,first edition. They used the W29922 power piston now known as the R 12L. I guess you are aware they have a hard plastic inner base wad. Lyman doesn't show any data using the #57 primer which was then in use in the Remington SP cases.
     
  7. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Be careful with these hulls. The base wad is a separate white plastic biscuit that can come out.

    I would only shoot these in a break gun, checking the bore each time.

    Regarding the primers, if you use a press with a solid rod to seat the primer, as in 600 JR or sizemaster you can squeeze 209's in, but they were originally the smaller ones.

    HM

    HM
     
  8. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Good job you guys. Halfmile is right on about the fiber base wads. IMO junk hulls. Wayne


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  9. bud168

    bud168 Member

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    Thanks for the info guys.. I dont like the idea of the base wad coming out or kind of forcing the primer in... I have a million newer style hulls I can use :)

    - Kurt Nelson
     
  10. ron (vt)

    ron (vt) Member

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    Somebody just sold about 6 thousand plus of those "57" primers on Gunbroker. Price was reasonable.

    Ron
     
  11. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Bud - Your picture shows you have All American hulls. The All American hulls used a 209 sized primer and had a black solid plastic basewad. I never heard of a problem with those.

    There were a couple of pre-All American look-a-likes that used a white plastic disk over a fiber basewad and used a smaller primer. A few real old ones just had a fiber basewad. There were rumors about those basewads, but that was pre-internet so those rumors never reached panic.

    Check your hulls. If they have a black basewad they are All Americans.
     
  12. duckeye

    duckeye TS Member

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    These hulls were famous for the base wad coming out and sticking in the barrel and when I loaded them I looked thru the barrel every shot and I still do that today These hulls made a fairly good load ( mostly for 16 yard} as they were a short case inside and it was tough to get the wad and powder to geta good load for handicap. The base wad is really high so it is a short wad.

    Duckeye
     
  13. bud168

    bud168 Member

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    mrskeet410 Im not home to check but yes Im almost positive they have the black base wad..

    - Kurt
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    bud168 I am wondering are these All-Americans once fired or have they been reloaded before???? If they are once fired you might try punching out a spent primer and checking the Diameter with a Mic or Vernier and you might get a little more incite into what was in them originally.

    Just a suggestion and it might payoff. I have been trying to remember what I used years ago. I don't believe I ever bought two different types of primers I just used the same primers in the All-American and the double AA.

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse Member

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    Here are some Remington-Peters hulls that I cut apart to show the progressions of design generations of Remington-Peters hulls.

    There has been essentially 4 generations of the Remington-Peters plastic target hulls. One might argue a 5th generation change when Remington changed the plastic compound from the Premier-Blue Magic to the current STS-Nitro 27 plastic they use today. I do not consider that to be a generation design change, but rather a plastic material refinement.

    ALL.... Let me repeat, ALL PLASTIC TARGET hulls had the *97. (Remington's 209 size equivalent primer) Yes, there were a few of the very early Remington-Peters Gun Club black hulls with a copper colored-plated base, Manufactured in the 70's that used the 57 primers but very few of those hulls still exist today. The Paper Target Load DID use the *57

    Most all the Remington-Peters hunting loads (high brass and mid brass hulls) still used the 57 primer for several years after the introduction of the *97 (circa 1964) up through part of 1990's. You may find some of those old style High and Mid Brass hunting loads on the shelf of old retailers today.

    Let me repeat again....All of the Plastic Target Load Hulls, With the exception of some very few, very early Gun Club hulls with the copper plated steel base were the *97, 209 size primers.

    Remington did have a problem with the 2 piece early hull with the base wad getting loose, but they had no more problems with their 2-piece hull that Winchester is having with the 2 piece AA hull of today. They learned their lesson early.

    Mark
     
  16. BunkerGuy

    BunkerGuy TS Member

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    I loaded a lot of them. They used the Remington 209 sized primer of the time. I remember they were harder to resize because of that high plastic base wad. Another issue is that the ends tended to crack quickly.

    For loading data, if you can't locate an older Dupont/IMR/Hodgdon reloading manual, you can call Hodgdon or Alliant for loading data. Be aware that Hercules (Alliant now) changed both Red Dot and Green Dot powders in the early '70s to a faster burning rate so their older reloading data is questionable.

    The story, as I recall it, was the changes (to the solid basewad and name change to All American) was made because reloading the Plastic Targets with primers other than the Remington, as the Alcan Maxfire 220's, would cause the top plastic part of the sawdust-filled plastic-encapsulated basewad to come out and lodge in the barrel as mentioned above.

    The crimp on these shells was different than the Remington shells seen today. I found a picture here: http://www.shootingbunker.com/366ArticlePart_II.html
    Scroll down about a third of the way through the article for the picture.

    - - Bill
     
  17. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    There were a couple of pre-All American Remington plastic target hulls. They looked very similar to the All American, but there were some differences. The immediate predecessor was commonly called 'Power Pistons', but they were never called that by Remington. Remington used that term for their one-piece plastic wad and shot-cup, but they did print that term on their packaging and maybe even printed it on the hull. Shooters were soon calling those hulls and ammo 'Power Pistons'.

    The All Americans had crimps like we have today. Most, if not all of pre-All Americans had the up-side-down crimp like you see at the link above. Like-wise, most, maybe all, of the pre-All Americans used a smaller primer, a 69* or a 57*. Some of those pre-All American were factory-loaded with felt or fiber wads, some had the Remington 'H-Wad'. Most had the basewad like the bottom hull in Dark Horse's picture. Some had a plain fiber or rolled paper basewad.

    Other than the crimp on the All Americans, bunker guy has it right.

    But the shells Bud has in his pic are All Americans with solid black plastic basewad, crimps as we know them today, and 209 sized primers, and they were factory-loaded loaded with 'Power Piston' wad.
     
  18. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Throw them away- really

    I loaded a zillon of them back in the day- they will break your hand or your reloading machine with those hard base wads ( yours will even be harder after all these years)

    And

    the base wad does come out sometimes during firing

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  19. bud168

    bud168 Member

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    I decided I probably wont use these shells.. I dont want to have to worry about them while shooting, I have enough to worry about lol :)

    Thanks for all the info guys, its a good thread for someone else that comes across a bunch of shells like this..

    - Kurt
     
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