1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Old Perazzi Choke Tubes

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by semperfi909, Oct 9, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,913
    Are are a couple pix. Most certainly factory original. As can be seen the early ones are quite different. Not so evident is that the knurling on the old ones is rather coarser. And of course I have no wrench so an internal twirler is the answer.
    All of the early ones are numbered to the barrel as well tho I do have a #5 that is not and it is completely blued so I assume that it is off the shelf rather than original to a gun.
    I didn't bother to measure them but if anyone needs that I can.

    this one is one a factory spindle to protect. I have two like this


    [​IMG]


    The three early types


    [​IMG]


    maybe a better shot


    [​IMG]


    one from the other gun


    [​IMG]
     
  2. flabigpapa

    flabigpapa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,471
    Location:
    N.E.Georgia Mts.
    I Cleaned mine up a Bit.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,913
    Just wanted to add that none of those tubes are for sale.

    thanks

    Charlie
     
  4. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    823
    Thank you for the photos comparing the "old chokes" to the later ones next to them. S/N #42151 is 1973. How was the pattern performance. In Mine the 7-10 shot like a rifle, went with 3-10 for 16 yds. Good job Charlie.
     
  5. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,913
    Yeah, one is a '73 and the other a '74. Like all the Perazzis I have patterned the old tubes are hammers. I use a #3 in the '74 for 1st bbl at flyers. I had a TMS that I shot for quite a while and the #6 patterned like a full. I never bothered to use anything else. Certainly didn't need more choke. I have read some complaints about Perazzi screw-ins but I have never experienced any of the problems. I like them fine.

    Charlie
     
  6. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,859
    The writing on the tubes comes from America.. where many people who had barrel and or choke work done..did this to their tubes.. the factory tubes were bare..except for the number stamp in the front ring.. Stu Wright and Cape outfitters both sold original.. and "special run" perazzi choketubes.. i've seen a few "thinwall" chokes made here in America that mimiced the front Perazzi knurking.. and even used the same wrench.. .775X40 tpi..which worked in alot of standard Perazzi barrels..

    A simple request I have for the earlier barrel is to check the proof stamp..I'd like to know if its 1973.. or later so I have the real answer.. I never gave it much thought.. but since the question has been raised.. I'd like to be sure of the answer..

    All Good.. Mike
     
  7. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,859
    Ok.. I'll end all the discussion.. I just got off the phone with Giacomo.. The first year of factory choketubes.. No exceptions except the factory prototypes that never left.. is 1976..
     
  8. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,913
    The best I can tell you is that the old bbls are both bulged just like later ones for the tubes and the old tubes are the same OD diameter as later ones, same thread major OD and same thread count - no "thinwall" by any stretch. If I had a microcomparagraph they prolly would have 55deg v-form threads too. Neither bbl shows any evidence of having the ribs pulled or reblued and the rib/recessed tube muzzle arrangement is JUST like later bbls. There are no number stamps on the front ring, they are etched in the tube body. I have Type1 tubes that are marked in exactly the same way and have no stamp on the front ring either. And the same guy could have done the writing. The writing on the tubes was most definitely NOT done by an any American taught to write in US schools. I would wager vital body parts on that. I spent some time in Italy, I know what their script looks like, and it all looks the same, and it looks like what is on the tubes. If that etching was done in the US the guy was FOB. The proof codes verify the '73 and '74 serial #'s.

    Unless someone else made the bbls, made them JUST like Perazzi was going to do a couple years later, put Perazzi's name on them, and sold at least one whole gun thru Ithaca, those babies came from the factory.

    Giacomo is probably perfectly right about productions guns, I have little doubt of that. I also have two bbls that pre-date that and are so difficult to de-authenticate as Perazzi factory work as to preclude doing so. It is way to far to hand one to Giacomo and hear what he says about it. Luchio is a lot closer by and I may stop by to see him if I'm down there. But to tell you the truth, I have no doubts period that they came from the factory.

    Charlie
     
  9. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    823
    The (1974 XXX) Ithaca mirage 45,xxx without choke markings on the lower barrel (bell mouth 4"), top barrel stamped (*) full. Side ribs. All numbers match. Same person scribed the numbers on its' tubes as Charlie's at the factory in Italy. They are obviously handfit very close to bore size, limiting interchange with other bores, hence the numbering. So we know of six (4 US), two or three of which are Ithaca. Prototype for sure early on '66 SC and E.M.'s '67 MX8, but 7-8 years later? Special ordered with plain wood and no engraving? Maybe through Pachmayr to be customized later, not Ithaca. This was 40 years ago and it's not surprising when I asked the good folks at Giacomo's, they seemed uncertain as to any chokes before MT6. Thanks for all the info. Hope these facts add clarity.
     
  10. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    823
    Charlie, are you sure they are the same size O.D.? I don't have any MT chokes handy, but I could swear the earlies were a lot smaller and different thread dia. (and pitch?). I called them thinwall because they are O.D. .755 in a .725(18.4)bore leaving .015 wall thikness. Mobile chokes are .787 and rem chokes are .817. Regards, GAP.
     
  11. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,398
    My 1973 TM-1 ser.# 2,00x has factory tubes.
     
  12. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    823
    Toolmaker, what type? Inquiring minds want to know. LOL
     
  13. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,398
    Straight knurled type #1 with the threads on top. The gun is original with case, stock wrench, choke tube wrench, and 3 factory chokes. #4, 6, and 10. At 16 yards the #4 will give good breaks, the #6 will ink ball them. Edit, the thread diameter is .805 and is a .75 pitch which would come out to around 33.867 threads per inch. In an earlier post someone mentioned a 55 degree pitch on Perazzi tubes, I know of no country other then England that uses this pitch angle (Witworth).
     
  14. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    823
    With the '74 mirage, I get thread dia. .781 / .772 at root; about 36.25 tpi.
     
  15. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,859
    I'll say it again.. You need to look at the date of the proofmark.. not the serial number.. and lets go from there.. My money is on Giacomo..as far as dates and what was offered..
     
  16. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    823
    Giacomo is mistaken. I normally wouldn't argue with him about Perazzi but the facts can not be disputed. With only a handfull known out of 16,000, it is easy for him to have missed them, or not remember.
     
  17. EuroJoe

    EuroJoe TS Supporters TS Supporters

    Joined:
    May 3, 2008
    Messages:
    3,353
    Location:
    Rockford,IL
    Remember: a Mirage was anything you wanted it to be!!
     
  18. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,913
    to Gapper and Toolmaker


    Well I was just eyeballing the things and it is hard for me to see .020” diff with the aging naked eye, but now as I measure them you are quite right the oldest ones are slightly smaller in diameter as well as length. Even so, the thread pitches are identical with the regular Type 1, a metric standard 0.75mm pitch – nothing unusual at all. The one you see in the pix with a 42151 ser# is proofed XXX . The serial is 1973 and the proof 1974. There is no MTR# so it was originally fitted to a gun and not just a shelf barrel to use whenever. Maybe made in Dec and proofed in Jan next hahaha AND it is marked as MX8, not Mirage, no importer stamp, and it has the MX8 standard high step rib on it not the low step Mirage. Has no choke marking for the lower bbl. The other one, 44945, has XXX proofs and the serial# and proof are consistent 1974. Ithaca import, no choke marking on the lower bbl, and no MTR# so bbl was original to the gun, and the regular Mirage low step rib.
    Obviously the guns exist, are just as obviously factory original, just as obviously different from the 1976 standard, and most definitely pre-1976. BFD Why would it be a surprise for Perazzi to build anything a client wanted? And if he had those choke tubes laying around, knew they worked, and had a chance to flip them what do you think he would do?

    FWIW I have had to make many replacement screws for old Italian stuff. The original was always 55deg in the microcomparagraph that my tool grinder used. This is the only ref I could find quick but it is right on too. I have made lots of Italian bicycle parts too and the old/broken was always 55deg even with the inch pitches. ISO with the 60deg came later and I’m not at all sure if Italian bikes or guns adopted it hahaha If you buy factory stuff it fits so who cares? Italians are funny guys sometimes but they just build the most beautiful stuff.


    Charlie


    from Sheldon Brown’s Bicycle Glossary
    Italian
    Italian bicycles are built to specific standards of threading and dimensions. Most parts on Italian-dimensioned bicycles are interchangeable with British/ISO dimensioned parts.
    The major exception is the bottom bracket. Italian bottom brackets are 70 mm wide, as opposed to the usual 68 mm dimension of British/ISO and French bottom brackets. The cup diameter is also larger. Sometimes, bicycles which have damaged bottom-bracket threads are machined out to Italian size to eliminate the damaged threads. Italian bottom brackets, like the French, use a right-hand thread on both sides, so the fixed cup is prone to loosening up unless very securely tightened or secured with threadlock compound.
    Italian threading is a curious mixture of metric and British. Diameters are specified in millimeters, but threads are in threads-per-inch! In addition, the thread angle is 55 degrees, as with the obsolete British Whitworth system, rather than 60 degrees as with U.S. and metric threads.
    Italian freewheel and headset threads are the same as British/ISO, except for the thread angle difference. They may be interchanged, but you should not go back-and-forth between Italian and British/ISO headsets. Italian freewheels are basically extinct, so the issue is moot there. Italian-size handlebars/stems generally use a clamping diameter of 26 mm. Many high-end aftermarket drop handlebars and "road" stems also use this size even if not Italian-made.
     
  19. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,859
    I'd love to see it.. and or hear what Luccio says.. The proof marks don't lie..
    In all the paperwork I have.. including build sheets.. choketubes were never a printed option till 1976.. and that was on the MT-6 and Comp4 SBT gun.. On build sheets..the first mention of screw chokes in general production was 1978..

    It might be useful to try to contact Karl Lippard.. He might have some insite to this perplexing question.. He did alot thru the custom side of Perazzi.. and had access to the records and build sheets..
     
  20. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    823
    Yes, Lippard would know as his book is helpful and there are lots of hints in it such as "small changes...made to...choke tubes that occur regularly..."Pg 33 and "...four styles of chokes. Many are obsolete..."pg74. This book was copyright 1994, before the advent over overbored barrels in Perazzi "...no overbored factory shotguns..."pg74. I think most choke tube suppliers only offer three at most excluding overbore for P guns. His book is highly recommended, and thankfully he took the time to write it. Also, Derek Partridge wrote much in the early days, he references choke tubes in 1970 Gun Digest (written 1969?) and by 1972 more information including "optional chokes for American market" with photos of a top-tubed mirage pigeon with the 5 early choke tubes(www.olympicshooting.com) Compounding the confusion is that these early tubed guns are obscure, the chokes look exactly like the MT6 chokes and most wouldn't notice the difference unless he had both together. No comparison in '74 because there was no MT6 yet. Thanks to all for the information especially Charlie and Toolmaker for photos and specs. GAP
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Search tags for this page
choke tubes for perazzi sc1
,
choke tubes mt6
,

perazzi choke tubes

,
perazzi choke tubes marking
,
perazzi chokes generation 1
,
perazzi mt6 1976
,
perazzi mt6 choke bore size
,
perazzi shotgun choke tubes