1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Old Old Red Dot

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by jerryw, Feb 6, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. jerryw

    jerryw TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    337
    I purchased a bunch of reloading supplies from an old gentleman. In this was a metal can of Red Dot he threw in. The can is rusted and looks to be very old.

    How would a person know if this should be used? It appears to have a couple of pounds of powder in it.

    I am leery of this. If not to be used, how would you dispose of it?

    Thanks

    Jerry Walker
     
  2. omgb

    omgb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,759
    Location:
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Jerry, here's the deal. You don't really know for sure that this is Red Dot now do you? I mean it might be, it probebly is but can you be "bet your life on it" sure? Most likely not. So, why bet your eyes, hands, gun on what can at best be, $60 worth of powder. I mean, who, after having a finger blown off or an eye put out, wouldn't be willing to spend a few hundred to prevent it? So why get cheap over $60? Dump it.
     
  3. jerryw

    jerryw TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    337
    Good Idea

    Jerry Walker
     
  4. 22hornet

    22hornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,461
    Location:
    Hanford, CA
    Ditto!
     
  5. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,628
    Location:
    HI
    I disagree with the above. If the can says Red Dot and it has the Red Dot flakes, it should be Red Dot. If it does not have a sour smell it should be still good. I would load it in loads at the lower end, 1 oz or 1 1/9 oz at 1150 f/s, finding the right bushing to use with a scale.

    If you decide to not use it, rather than just dumping it or burning it, it is high in nitrogen, spread it around the lawn.

    Jason
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    If it is truly an old can of Red Dot, especially if it is prior to 1960, it could have significant collectors value. First, find out what you have. If it turns out to be made in the 1990's, use the powder and save the can. The can will soon be collectible. A few test rounds can easily be loaded. Powder will get weaker, not stronger with improper storage and it should be safe to test. The Alliant plant has a sample of Red Dot that is nearly 100 years old and it still tests good. The sample is carefully stored under water covered with kerosene. Seems like an odd way to store powder to me, but it works.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,460
    Location:
    SE PA
    Geez Pat, you have that story burned into your brain. The sample you speak of is Unique, and it is stored in water, not kerosene.
     
  8. nspktr1

    nspktr1 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    336
    zzt, seems you should read Pat's post a little more carefully.
     
  9. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,428
    Been reloading for over 40 years. I have yet to find a sample of powder that has gone bad. Give it the smell test. HMB
     
  10. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    11,140
    It would be more fun to pour a narrow strip in the driveway and light it on the 4th of July. $20 of powder is not worth the effort. I would not trust the powder. Save the can.
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    zzt- I was told about the sample by Dick Quesenberry. Dick is some sort of middle management for Alliant. He told me the sample was Red Dot, stored under water with a layer of kerosene over the water. I have not seen the sample but it is a unique story.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. Ed Y

    Ed Y TS Supporters TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,423
    Location:
    Warren New Jersey
    Years ago, when Kay Ohye was writing his book, "You and the Target", I had the opportunity to go with him to the Kenvil, NJ plant to take some pictures illustrating some reloading information. In his book there is a picture of the rather large sealed jar with the powder stored under water. We were told that "Hercules" would occasionally take some out, dry it, and test it. According to them, the powder maintained all of it's characteristics over the many years that it had been stored. The lab technicians told me that the only thing that makes powder deteriorate is heat and/or sunlight.

    Ed Yanchok
     
  13. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,460
    Location:
    SE PA
    flincher, I don't recall discussing TiteGroup. Refresh my memory.

    Pat, when you repeated that story last year, I called Alliant. I was directed to the gentleman who actually had the sample of the 100+ year old powder on a shelf above his desk. He told me is was most assuredly unique, the very first powder they made, and was stored in water. I have read exactly the same account elsewhere. I than specifically asked if he was sure it was water and not kerosene. He said it was absolutely, positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt water, and most definitely not kerosene.

    Since you live 10 miles from the plant, pop over and see for yourself. They told me that if I was ever in the area to stop in and they would show it to me.

    The jar Ed speaks about in the post above is that very same jar of Unique.
     
  14. omgb

    omgb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,759
    Location:
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Hey guys, I don't doubt the powder is still good. The issue is what powder is it really and is it contaminated with another powder that cannot be detected by sight or smell. The possibility, no matter how remote, makes me think the risk is greater than the gain.
     
  15. hairy

    hairy TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    374
    I agree with Setterman. One of my customers gave me a partial 8# jug of Herco that I intend to burn. I really have no use for Herco for any loading I do anyway. There must be 5# left in the jug so I should have some real fun with that much.
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    I did check with the Alliant plant and the story Dick told me was incorrect. The sample is Unique, not Red Dot. Can I blame Dick for my mistake or should I take responsibility for it?

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,469
    Some people have been known to cut old shells open and put different kinds in one container including BLACK powder! Dispose of it. Jeff
     
  18. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,460
    Location:
    SE PA
    I'd blame Dick.
     
  19. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,460
    Location:
    SE PA
    flincher100, on 16 Dec 05 I wrote- TiteGroup is the hands-down best powder I've ever used for 1 1/8oz @ 1150fps. It dissolves my polycarbonate powder hopper, pits powder coat paint, and leaves so much carbon on my choke tubes and in my ports that I don't think I'm going to buy another batch.

    I've changed guns since then. I no longer have ports or choke tubes and I solved the polycarbonate problem by lining the hopper with a transparent, non-reactive plastic sheet. I can leave any powder in indefinitely, even e3 and TiteGroup, with no problems. However, I never bought another batch.

    In the interim, I tried Red Dot, e3, Green Dot and American Select for the same load. Between TiteGroup and e3, I would now take e3, because it is cleaner, but primarily because it has enough bulk to use normal bushings. I had great success using Green Dot in warm weather. Red Dot was always okay. Then I started developing loads using Am Sel with the help of a chronograph. My current favorite load for 1 1/8oz @ 1145 fps is as follows: STS hull, W209 primer, 18.4gr Am Sel, Fig-8 wad and 1 1/8oz West Coast Magnum shot. This load gives me 1158fps with SDs in the single digits. It simply vaporizes targets.

    I saved some TiteGroup and I plan to retry it vis s vis the Am Sel load when I get my barrels back from Wilkinson. I suspect I'll stick with Am Sel. I remember the TiteGroup loads performance with fondness; however the negatives finally wore me down. The Am Sel load has no negatives that I've discovered yet.
     
  20. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,209
    Location:
    Scottsdale, AZ
    If it is truly "original Red Dot" and has not been mixed with other stuff - the loading tables for Red Dot were not the same as the current Red Dot. Call Alliant and do exactly as they advise you. Don't guess, period!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.