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OHIO STATE SHOOT INFO ON TARGETS

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr.Longshot, Oct 28, 2011.

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  1. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    I just got off the phone w/Brad Dysinger and he told me this.

    He had the trapsetters raise the DOUBLES TARGETS, and ADD 2 MORE TURNS on the SPRING at the Ohio Stae Shoot and the DOUBLES scores went up.

    The reason was the targets were not short, and lower class shooters broke more of them because the targets were higher and farther allowing better 2nd shots,
    That helped the lower class shooters, had no affect on TOP DOGS SCORES.

    At the Ohio State Shoot Handicap Lewis class 72% played the lewis class and it paid 9 scores, 3 classes 50/30/20

    The Michigan Shoot approx only 10% played the Lewis Class w $10.00 entry
    The Ohio State Shoot Lewis class entry was higher I believe either $20 or $25
    and entries were up.

    Shooters shot 3 hole targets on Ohio State Shoot w/faster targets and Brad said the SHORT YARDAGE SHOOTERS SCORES WENT UP, they did not go down.

    I did not know this until I talked to BRAD a few minutes ago.

    These target settings were only done at the OHIO STATE SHOOT.

    There were some 100s in handicaps on 3 hole targets, but fewer 100s were broke.

    It is not against the ATA rules to have a calcutta, rules say they do not condone that practice.

    Brad Dysinger says in Live Pigeon Shoots the buyer gets 80% of the winnings
    and shooters get 20%, ant he said there are THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS in that CALCUTTA.

    This is the exact example I have stressed. The newer shooters do not know how a CALCUTTA works and the MONEY that can be won.

    OK now we have a Calcutta on the last Handicap of the program, ENTRY will be $20.00, and you are sold and buyer gets 70% and shooter gets 30%, this puts a lot of money in the shoot, You let someone buy you, you get 30% of what you won and BUYER gets 70% of what you won, the buyers have more money invested than the shooter.

    In live bird shooting $30,000 to over $100,000 can be won.
    The CALCUTTA is the reason for BIG MONEY SHOOTS. THIS IS HOW GOLF GETS LARGE PURSES.

    Us old time shooters have shot calcuttas in earlier years at ATA events.

    Middletown Gun Club should change the CACUTTA pay outs to 70% and 30% for their CALCUTTAS and watch the increse in participation.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  2. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Dr. L -

    Do you have any information on how many squads requested trap resets on the doubles after they were raised up? I know that lower class doubles shooters prefer higher targets, but it's my experience that the better shooters do not like them as high. The lower class shooters scores went up relative to what? Prior day, prior year, overall average? Did the weather have anything to do with it?

    I've got some bad news for you. Golf tournaments do not get large purses because of calcuttas. They get large purses because of sponsorships. You didn't really think that people were showing up the night before the tournament starts and buying the golfers, and then taking 80 percent of the winnings, did you?

    Scott
     
  3. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    I shot better caps in Ohio State, in the wind, than in Michigan State with narrow targets.
     
  4. blade819

    blade819 Well-Known Member

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    I was on a Doubles Squad and we delayed the start for 1/2 hour because one shooter was not pleased with the set. Me? Hell I shot crappy anyway.

    blade819
     
  5. mkstephen

    mkstephen Active Member

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    I shot the 2011 Ohio State shoot. There was a head wind every day. I realized immediately that the target speed was set fast along with 3 hole birds. How did I determine this? Because you couldn't catch up with an extreme right angle on post 5 or an extreme left angle from post 1 unless you were holding way outside the house. I supposed the theory was the targets would buck the wind better.


    I agree with Scott Calhoun on the target re-sets. Why in the world would you want to practice and shoot all year at a known target speed then go to a state shoot where the speed is cranked up and not known? Changing the target speed changes everything.


    Dr. Longshot;


    Perhaps you should read the rule book to Brad, section XIII paragraph 'F' page 49;


    "The correct speed for a singles or handicap target is a minimum of 42 MPH, maximum 43 MPH. The correct speed for the right target of a doubles pair must be a minimum of 39 MPH, maximum of 40 MPH.



    There wasn't a maximum speed in 2009 but the rules were changed in 2010 for maximum bird speed because of clubs cranking up the speed.



    Michael Stephenson


    AA-27-AA
     
  6. IndyShotgun

    IndyShotgun TS Member

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    "Why in the world would you want to practice and shoot all year at a known target speed then go to a state shoot where the speed is cranked up and not known?"

    Sounds like you need to go home and have your club throw harder targets to get you ready for the big event.
     
  7. Danby

    Danby Member

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    I was practicing at Cardinal last summer and they were checking speeds on doubles, they were 39 mph, they jacked them up to 42mph , I really didn't notice any difference, matter of fact I shot a better score after he set it up, then they turned it back to 40mph
     
  8. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Longsh?t: Calcuttas are kept on the quiet side because they are illegal in most areas because they are a form of illegal gambling. I guess some places don't want to put their facility at risk for a calcutta. Most calcuttas are run by an individual or individuals separate from the event to protect the club. You ever wonder why they are called "Special Events". Keep blabbering your mouth on a public forum and hope the wrong person isn't reading this.

    Why would average or below average shooter enter other than as a buyer, hope that they get hot. If you can't break 96 or better on a somewhat regular basis then you wasted your money.

    Did you tell Brad you were going to put this all over the internet or did you do it for personal attention?? There is no three hole on the new machines.

    Don
     
  9. jeffprigge

    jeffprigge Active Member

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    70% buyer and 30% shooter and the buyer has more invested ?????? guns , shells , entry fees, lodging , food , I dont think the buyer has more in it than the shooter . should be 60 % shooter and 40 % buyer . JMO Jeff Prigge
     
  10. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    LongShort ... on so many levels you wear the pointed hat and carry the sign.

    BTW, how's your 'Proof of Concept: Retro-Trap' shoot coming along?

    date yet?

    location?

    sponsors?

    added money?

    When are you accepting entries?


    Bob
     
  11. trapshooteraa27aa

    trapshooteraa27aa Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Brad was just casting the line knowing Dr Longblow would bite..LMFAO Maybe Ill call Brad tonight (personally) and get his views on trapshooting in antartica.
    Chris
     
  12. IndyShotgun

    IndyShotgun TS Member

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    Don, Calcuttas are usually not illegal because they are games of skill, not chance.
     
  13. trapshooteraa27aa

    trapshooteraa27aa Well-Known Member

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    Once again windyindy you prove what an uneducated idiot you are. Tell me the difference of chance and skill of shooting at the 27 yd line for lets just say a CHANCE to win $10000 or entering a calcutta for a CHANCE to win $10000?. Both require to break the best score to win. God I want to know where your trailer park is located so I can drop off a hooked on phonics for you to use. You continue to prove what a useless twit you really are. Keep it up..LMAO
    Chris
     
  14. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Dysinger wouldn't give the DR. some BS info, Would he???????
     
  15. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Indy -

    I think you have Calcuttas confused with Options.

    Options are legal because they are based on skill, and the person playing the option is the only person who can win money (i.e. he is betting on his own skill).

    Calcuttas are generally considered gambling because there is betting on other people's skill - i.e. the buyer is not betting on his own skill but rather the skill of someone else.

    In our area there are clubs that run calcuttas, but the money is generally not very good. Most of the people I shoot with don't play because they know they can't win. Usually if you are a shooter with a limited chance of winning it still costs you $20 because you have to buy yourself in the auction. Around us at local shoots the calcutta entry is $10 and it's $10 if no one purchases you in the auction. Most people don't want to contribute $20 with virtually no chance to win.

    Scott
     
  16. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    I'll be in a fishing tournament this January and the calcutta monies will be in excess of $1 mil.

    Last year, that state's attorney general was on a boat that took 3rd place money....

    Curt
     
  17. hfrogdogc

    hfrogdogc Member

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    If you don't think you can win,just dress good and buy a good shooter Henry
     
  18. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Curt -

    That's hard to believe. Historically politicans are highly ethical and sqeaky clean when it comes to obeying the law. You almost never hear of a politician being convicted of crime or being sentenced to jail.

    Scott
     
  19. FlaLagarto

    FlaLagarto Well-Known Member

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    Scott.. I thought you give up drinking this early in the day.. LOL
     
  20. milton03

    milton03 Member

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    Don't usually jump into the fray, but the good doctor has peeked my interest so I thought I'd run a little shoot comparison between the PA State and the Ohio State (which allegedly threw the dreaded "3" holer). Considering that these are the two largest state shoots in the country, are held literally one week apart and are in relatively close proximity to each other it would be reasonable to conclude that the shooter demographics are highly similar. No 16 yd issues were raised by the doctor hence no comparison necessary. Regarding doubles, I believe the doctor meant to say that the initial target presentation was "short" and once adjusted to the proper height and distance by Mr. Dysinger scores of the lower class shooters improved. No argument here. I think most of us will agree good targets = good scores.

    As to the handicap:
    The PA State/Colonial Classic had eight hdcp events of which I chose the six highest in entries for comparison purposes. There were total 3641 entries over the six events, 32 scores of 97 or greater (.08%/entries) of which 14(43%) were posted by 27 yarders. One event was won with a high score of 96, the winning score in the other five was a 98. In all events a 27 yarder did post or tie the winning score.

    The Ohio State hdcp(s) had total entries of 4707 with 104 scores (2.2%/entries) of 97 or greater of which 49(47%) were posted by 27 yarders. Three events were won with 100's posted by two 19 yarders and a 20 yarder. The other three were won with a 99 which was either posted or tied by a 27 yarder. In total there were three 100's and seven 99's shot over the six events.

    I assume of course that the target presentation at the PA State was set in accordance with the current ATA recommended setting(s) which the good doctor quite often refers to as two hole "cream puffs". However the comparison suggests that in fact the "dreaded 3 holer" resulted in higher scores with a greater domination by the 27 yarders. Perhaps the good doctor should be talking to Mr Pascoe instead of Mr Dysinger?

    Also ran a quick comparison of the lewis purse soley for the handicap championship event [note that the the top class was dismissed so as not to overly skew the results]
    PA State: [60/40 high gun??]
    $20 entry, 59% participation, 167 payouts, average payout $53.80
    Ohio State: [50/30/20 percentage]
    $25 entry, 68% participation, 319 payouts, average payout $41.33
    Total winning scores PA-7, Ohio-9. In each instance the top class scores were substantially higher payouts due limited multiples. Essentially there is no significant difference. However, the 50/30/20 lewis will not work at smaller shoots unless the entry fee is substantially raised to avoid $1-$2 payouts. Personally I beleive the ATA should be looking at some sort of a modified lewis purse which would bring a greater participation from the average Joe.

    Any comparison bewteen live bird shooting and ATA is ludicrous and only shows the good doctors ignorance in these matters. I shot my last calacutta at the PA Grand in the late 1970's. If memory serves the purse was somewhere in the neighborhood of $20K stoked by high dollar bids on Mr. Little and Mr. Ohye to name a few. In addition, there was so much sand on the line you'd of thought you were at the beach. I believe the winning score was 100 or 99 posted by some good ole boy in bib overhalls wielding a field grade 870 from 20 yards. To everyones "surprise" he sledom shot registered events but managed to have just enough targets in to avoid penalty yardage! Most of the clubs I frequent do hold calacutta/special events and virtually in every instance one of the winning scores is posted by a "target manager". I'm not adverse to calacuttas, jackpot purses etc but as other posters have noted if you're going to jump into the arena where the big dogs and "managers" lie be prepared to get bit. As Mr. Hauser noted (paraphrasing) on another thread on this forum, "the object of this game is to beat your competitor by one target" - ah yes the good old ATA con! Welcome back Mr. Hauser.

    Shoot well, MILT
     
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