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Observation on Neil Winston target break videos

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by hockeyref, Dec 26, 2011.

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  1. hockeyref

    hockeyref Member

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    This is probably gonna stir stuff a bit, but I've been wanting to throw this out there for a while since I've noticed consistent "break patterns" in my own shooting... particularly what I call a "star break" where there are 4 larger pieces thrown in four different directions - almost 90* apart. I've read and reviewed Neil's stuff on target breaks and - at least to me - I see consistent "chunk patterns" in his videos that do correspond to somewhat to where the shot cloud is.

    The original contention was that you could tell where your cloud was based on the direction the pieces went (up, down, right, left).... but Neil's video shows this to not be the case. What was ignored was the overall chunk patterns and how consistent they seemed After watching the video over and over, it does seem like the high,mid-high, and mid-low shot breaks have a similar & somewhat consistent "chunk pattern". Just as the low shot that hits the back edge\rim seems to have a sort of consistent "chunk pattern".....

    So I'm putting this out there for discussion (argument?) Do these "Chunk patterns" tell us anything useful when combined with known shot cloud placement?
     
  2. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    It depends on how much choke was used for the demo. I think it was a more open choke and therefore the video means squat.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  3. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Reading breaks is a combination of art and science. There is more to reading breaks than just the size and direction of travel of the pieces of the target. When everything is put together a high degree of accuracy can be attained. HMB
     
  4. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Not really. Dust balls means you're right on, and big "chunks" means you almost missed. For 99% of shooters that's that's the only meaningful thing that can be gleaned from "watching the breaks."

    Top-level shooters sometimes talk about knocking the pieces back toward the middle of the trap field as an indicator that you're leading the bird properly. Or, as Harlan Campbell puts it, "staying on the money side of the bird." Obviously Campbell knows what he's talking about and the physics involved seems to make sense -- BUT ONLY WHEN THE BIRD ARE BROKEN WITH AUTHORITY. Unfortunately lesser shooters carry this intuitive notion over to birds which are broken by only a few pellets, in which case the post-break flight of the pieces becomes much more random. So watching the breaks on these can confuse the intuition, especially for those who don't grasp the physics/dynamics involved.

    For example, I've stood behind a young shooter who I can see FOR SURE is not giving the birds enough lead. On a hard right, he'll barely break it and if pieces go left (toward the middle of the field) he'll say, "see I gave that bird too much lead and almost missed!" It's difficult to explain to an uneducated mind the concepts of momentum and angular momentum, but suffice it to say that... WHEN BIRDS ARE BARELY BROKEN (I.E. HIT BY FEW PELLETS AND RESULTING IN LARGE PIECES) THE POST-BREAK DIRECTION THE PIECES FLY CAN BE VERY MISLEADING.

    -Gary
     
  5. Hammer1

    Hammer1 Active Member

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    .

    Where do y'all weigh the thoughts and conclusions of Dr. A C Jones and of Neil Winston on reading breaks ?

    .
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,859
    Oh, HMB, one slip is not the end; it can just be a time of reassessment, a time of rededication to your final goal.

    I was encouraged when I heard that someone at an Allentown meeting of TBRA had, after several visits, finally stood up and declared "I'm Howard and I am a target-break reader."

    That was a while ago and suspect that your post is a result of problems working through steps eight and nine - it's hard for everyone.

    Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all

    Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others

    I suppose you have the same history most of us have. Brought into a league team when several noticed how dedicated we were and betting we would get somewhere, the captain of the "BirdBreakers" took us aside to let us in on the myriad secrets which had lead BirdBreakers to several high placings in the B class of Allentown league shooting. Among the arcana was the secret to "reading the breaks" to which you fully subscribed and, if the truth were known, you'd do anything for a big chip to the left right now.

    And you did the same, who wouldn't? You became captain of the BB's and when your son-in-law and the boss's niece joined, you told them the secret as well, even stood over their shoulders and announced in perfect seriousness "See that chip up? That means you were below it. The next one, the right hander, you were behind and drove the chips more to the right." I mean, once we sober up, we can hardly believe we did it, can we, but that's the effect of nonsense on our minds and we have to remember, we are not alone in this recovery process.

    Well, now you have seen the videos and undergone the same conversion as a drunk when shown how he acted at the Christmas party and it's those two steps you just can't climb but look at the numbers, you are more than half-way there!

    We who have been there understand. We "bargained" too, in almost the same words. I may myself have explained my destructive behavior with "There is more to reading breaks than just the size and direction of travel of the pieces of the target. When everything is put together a high degree of accuracy can be attained." I mean, we'll grasp at anything to avoid the truth, especially when the truth is so painful.

    If you are going to work the program, Howard, you are just going to have complete Step 9. No email, no phone call. She won't be at the club anymore, of course, and she's sold the gun she was once so proud of too, but you are just going to have to find her and face her. I have to warn you, it can be just awful and your son-in-law is likely to the be worst because as a man he thought he could get good at shooting - and perhaps without you, Howard, would have. It's often like the scene in the car from "On the Waterfront." Brace yourself for it. "It was you, Howard, it was you all the time; it was you held me back. I coudda been somebody, I coudda been a shooter. . ." and so on. The feeling of guilt is almost overwhelming.

    So call your sponsor, she can, as a victim, bring a perspective to your condition you can get no other way. Start attending meetings again, maybe just now and then to start, and let the group work with you to bring you through this time. We have all been there. You can do it. Best of luck,

    Neil
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,229
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    "Top-level shooters sometimes talk about knocking the pieces back toward the middle of the trap field as an indicator that you're leading the bird properly. Or, as Harlan Campbell puts it, "staying on the money side of the bird." Obviously Campbell knows what he's talking about and the physics involved seems to make sense -- BUT ONLY WHEN THE BIRD ARE BROKEN WITH AUTHORITY. Unfortunately lesser shooters carry this intuitive notion over to birds which are broken by only a few pellets, in which case the post-break flight of the pieces becomes much more random. So watching the breaks on these can confuse the intuition, especially for those who don't grasp the physics/dynamics involved."

    Well stated Gary!!

    Another point. If shooters of Harlan's ability knows they are on the money side of a target, wouldn't they also know they're on the losers side when that condition presents itself also? They know that because they've seen it with their eyes in their bird/bead relationship and not by the way an errant piece happened to fly off in some direction!

    Neil's work in this area is the best I've ever seen and I thank him for his efforts and sharing it with all of us. HMB, too bad for you bub.

    Hap
     
  8. hockeyref

    hockeyref Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2010
    Messages:
    36
    This is probably gonna stir stuff a bit, but I've been wanting to throw this out there for a while since I've noticed consistent "break patterns" in my own shooting... particularly what I call a "star break" where there are 4 larger pieces thrown in four different directions - almost 90* apart. I've read and reviewed Neil's stuff on target breaks and - at least to me - I see consistent "chunk patterns" in his videos that do correspond to somewhat to where the shot cloud is.

    The original contention was that you could tell where your cloud was based on the direction the pieces went (up, down, right, left).... but Neil's video shows this to not be the case. What was ignored was the overall chunk patterns and how consistent they seemed After watching the video over and over, it does seem like the high,mid-high, and mid-low shot breaks have a similar & somewhat consistent "chunk pattern". Just as the low shot that hits the back edge\rim seems to have a sort of consistent "chunk pattern".....

    So I'm putting this out there for discussion (argument?) Do these "Chunk patterns" tell us anything useful when combined with known shot cloud placement?
     
  9. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,722
    It depends on how much choke was used for the demo. I think it was a more open choke and therefore the video means squat.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  10. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,440
    Reading breaks is a combination of art and science. There is more to reading breaks than just the size and direction of travel of the pieces of the target. When everything is put together a high degree of accuracy can be attained. HMB
     
  11. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    Messages:
    6,246
    Not really. Dust balls means you're right on, and big "chunks" means you almost missed. For 99% of shooters that's that's the only meaningful thing that can be gleaned from "watching the breaks."

    Top-level shooters sometimes talk about knocking the pieces back toward the middle of the trap field as an indicator that you're leading the bird properly. Or, as Harlan Campbell puts it, "staying on the money side of the bird." Obviously Campbell knows what he's talking about and the physics involved seems to make sense -- BUT ONLY WHEN THE BIRD ARE BROKEN WITH AUTHORITY. Unfortunately lesser shooters carry this intuitive notion over to birds which are broken by only a few pellets, in which case the post-break flight of the pieces becomes much more random. So watching the breaks on these can confuse the intuition, especially for those who don't grasp the physics/dynamics involved.

    For example, I've stood behind a young shooter who I can see FOR SURE is not giving the birds enough lead. On a hard right, he'll barely break it and if pieces go left (toward the middle of the field) he'll say, "see I gave that bird too much lead and almost missed!" It's difficult to explain to an uneducated mind the concepts of momentum and angular momentum, but suffice it to say that... WHEN BIRDS ARE BARELY BROKEN (I.E. HIT BY FEW PELLETS AND RESULTING IN LARGE PIECES) THE POST-BREAK DIRECTION THE PIECES FLY CAN BE VERY MISLEADING.

    -Gary
     
  12. Hammer1

    Hammer1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,595
    .

    Where do y'all weigh the thoughts and conclusions of Dr. A C Jones and of Neil Winston on reading breaks ?

    .
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,859
    Oh, HMB, one slip is not the end; it can just be a time of reassessment, a time of rededication to your final goal.

    I was encouraged when I heard that someone at an Allentown meeting of TBRA had, after several visits, finally stood up and declared "I'm Howard and I am a target-break reader."

    That was a while ago and suspect that your post is a result of problems working through steps eight and nine - it's hard for everyone.

    Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all

    Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others

    I suppose you have the same history most of us have. Brought into a league team when several noticed how dedicated we were and betting we would get somewhere, the captain of the "BirdBreakers" took us aside to let us in on the myriad secrets which had lead BirdBreakers to several high placings in the B class of Allentown league shooting. Among the arcana was the secret to "reading the breaks" to which you fully subscribed and, if the truth were known, you'd do anything for a big chip to the left right now.

    And you did the same, who wouldn't? You became captain of the BB's and when your son-in-law and the boss's niece joined, you told them the secret as well, even stood over their shoulders and announced in perfect seriousness "See that chip up? That means you were below it. The next one, the right hander, you were behind and drove the chips more to the right." I mean, once we sober up, we can hardly believe we did it, can we, but that's the effect of nonsense on our minds and we have to remember, we are not alone in this recovery process.

    Well, now you have seen the videos and undergone the same conversion as a drunk when shown how he acted at the Christmas party and it's those two steps you just can't climb but look at the numbers, you are more than half-way there!

    We who have been there understand. We "bargained" too, in almost the same words. I may myself have explained my destructive behavior with "There is more to reading breaks than just the size and direction of travel of the pieces of the target. When everything is put together a high degree of accuracy can be attained." I mean, we'll grasp at anything to avoid the truth, especially when the truth is so painful.

    If you are going to work the program, Howard, you are just going to have complete Step 9. No email, no phone call. She won't be at the club anymore, of course, and she's sold the gun she was once so proud of too, but you are just going to have to find her and face her. I have to warn you, it can be just awful and your son-in-law is likely to the be worst because as a man he thought he could get good at shooting - and perhaps without you, Howard, would have. It's often like the scene in the car from "On the Waterfront." Brace yourself for it. "It was you, Howard, it was you all the time; it was you held me back. I coudda been somebody, I coudda been a shooter. . ." and so on. The feeling of guilt is almost overwhelming.

    So call your sponsor, she can, as a victim, bring a perspective to your condition you can get no other way. Start attending meetings again, maybe just now and then to start, and let the group work with you to bring you through this time. We have all been there. You can do it. Best of luck,

    Neil
     
  14. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,229
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    "Top-level shooters sometimes talk about knocking the pieces back toward the middle of the trap field as an indicator that you're leading the bird properly. Or, as Harlan Campbell puts it, "staying on the money side of the bird." Obviously Campbell knows what he's talking about and the physics involved seems to make sense -- BUT ONLY WHEN THE BIRD ARE BROKEN WITH AUTHORITY. Unfortunately lesser shooters carry this intuitive notion over to birds which are broken by only a few pellets, in which case the post-break flight of the pieces becomes much more random. So watching the breaks on these can confuse the intuition, especially for those who don't grasp the physics/dynamics involved."

    Well stated Gary!!

    Another point. If shooters of Harlan's ability knows they are on the money side of a target, wouldn't they also know they're on the losers side when that condition presents itself also? They know that because they've seen it with their eyes in their bird/bead relationship and not by the way an errant piece happened to fly off in some direction!

    Neil's work in this area is the best I've ever seen and I thank him for his efforts and sharing it with all of us. HMB, too bad for you bub.

    Hap
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,859
    Dr. Longshot (Gary Bryant) since you obviously have neither seen the eight chapters of videos nor read the accompanying text, you do not know that full chokes were used, centered, less-centered, and "skinny" hits were filmed - many examples of each - when the bulk of the shot was centered, high, low, left and right of the bird from the 16 and 27 when the birds were angled or a straightaway, as was the camera.

    Thus, since your opinion that "the video (did your really not know there was more than one?) means squat," does itself, mean squat.

    Neil
     
  16. 20yard

    20yard TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
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    170
    Neil's videos and analysis were pretty comprehensive, they have shown our "abilities to read breaks" are trap folklore. As any recovering reader will tell you, when at the club and everyone is reading breaks for friends it's hard not to read just one when you "see clearly" he was below and sent those pieces up.
     
  17. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    5,722
    Neil I watched the videos, and what I saw was a shooter who was not etting good hits and hard to read targets. Even though you said it was a full choke gun. How many targets were hit with AUTHORITY for a good overall observation.

    Obviously not a competetive shooter at best.

    When videoing you can opt out certain parts. If that was Harlans input I am with him, on the money side of the bird is nwhere I want to be, and shoot to be on that side every target.

    But what's going to hurt me now is shooting a 1 oz load at hdcp. But I will give it my best shot.


    GB
    DLS
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary, the videos covered the whole spectrum, from dead-center, to less solid, to just a pellet or two from the the side/end of the shot string.

    The dead-center hits tell us nothing; they are just a black cloud with small pieces here and there.

    The less solid hits provide the pieces people imagine that they "read," but as the videos prove, they (the pieces) do not behave differentially with respect to where the bulk of the shot charge was. The big pieces go right, generally speaking, because that's the direction they were going when the shot broke up the front (shot side) of the target.

    The general trend of pieces is up because that's the way the mass of the target was going when it was broken and a few pellets do not have the momentum to change that.

    Some pieces sometimes go down because of random and chance interactions between the spin of the piece and it's shape and orientation.

    And that's all there is to it. As several have mentioned, a good shooter knows where he or she shot anyway, and so telling him (mostly) false information is worse than useless. It's the not-so-good shooter who sufferers the most from delusional "coaches" who screw them up so bad with this and so much other nonsensical theory it's a wonder that after a night of "coaching" they come back at all.

    Kay Ohye used to say "Some shooters are simply naturals. They show up at the club and effortlessly center the targets one after the other and are right at the top right from the start. Don't worry about them. After a year at the club, the guys there will have them so screwed up they won't be able to hit anything."

    I consider it a testment to the persuasiveness of the videos that Ron Baker and I were immediately accused of "slanting" the videos, selecting scenes which bolstered our argument and hiding the others. The main proponent of that view whom I recall was Yansica1 who fled back to the island and kept his head down for the whole rest of the series once he saw, in Chapter 2, which way the tide was running.

    I seriously think that there is no argument with what the videos show. No one has challenged their content. Sure they say the shooter was no good but that's nonsense, since it is very, very hard to get "graduated" hits - center, mid, light and then going on to do it in all four quadrants - though, when you are done, they speak for themselves and need little explanation.

    Neil
     
  19. Hammer1

    Hammer1 Active Member

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    Neil Winston’s videos and Dr. A C Jones’ videos and statistical analysis (Chapter 11) – the two men working independently an ocean apart but coming to a similar conclusion – are interesting.

    They could both be totally wrong. Their methods and analysis could be wrong. Or they could be driven by evil intentions to mislead the innocent.

    What do y’all think ?

    .
     
  20. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    IL(The gun friendly Southern Part)
    If you need a better understanding of Trap there is a hotline you can call day or night to get all the latest answers to your Trap questions. I personally know numerous "Big Dogs" who use it. Leo, Harlan, the Bartholow brothers, Kay and many others call just before a major shoot to freshen up their skills. I heard a rumor that 13yr old Logan Taylor had called just before winning the Martins Grand Shootout.


    The best time to call is between 2:30-4:00am EST.

    (614)-374-5567
     
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