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O/U guns classified as bunker guns

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by sernv99, Oct 29, 2010.

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  1. sernv99

    sernv99 Active Member

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    looking around the new and used gun sites, I see a lot of the over under guns that are set up for Bunker as being classified as a Pigeon gun as well....typical specs are 29.5 to 30.5" barrels, flat or step rib, barrel weight in the mid to high 1.5kg range, usually fixed choke at IM/F or LF/F or F/XF or whatever else combination that is out there...

    I know pigeon loads and bunker loads are at opposite ends of the recoil spectrum.... 7/8oz vs 1 1/4 oz or something like that.

    if you were shooting the two disciplines, would you get two seperate barrels (heavy and light) to shoot each sport or would you go with the bunker set-up and just suck it up when shooting the power pigeon loads?

    I shoot a K80 ProSporter with 32" barrels. I'm looking at getting 30" ProSporter barrels to shoot bunker but I can use a good excuse to fund another gun purchase so am looking for a "new" gun (prefer slightly used or like new to start off with)...(will attempt to venture into pigeon shooting next year when my pockets are a little deeper). The most ass kicking load I have shot through my K80 has been Rem. Nitro 1 1/8oz @ 1300fps. I shot 200 of those on a clays course in one shooting session straight through and I really felt it an hour later after I stopped shooting LOL

    let's keep the replies on the guns themselves, not on the general topic of pigeon shooting.

    feel free to pm me or email if you want...

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    Bunker the factory likes #7 #10 .028/.040 for both.. Usually.. the only difference is the stock.. I'd say 1 gun with a Rads/Bumpbuster/PFS and do it all..
     
  3. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I like lighter shorter bbls for flyers, and a pretty open 1st bbl, like #3 or #4, if you are a fast shooter.
    My best bunker scores too were shot at Martinez over the old bunker with a 70cm 1.43kg bbl pigeon gun with a #3 in the 1st bbl. I don't remember that gun shooting many sub-20 scores over the bunker at all and those were not the fault of the gun hahaha And it also shot many 95+/100 scores over a cranked wobble too. And flat slammed flyers.
    Of course I can only speak to the Perazzis I have and shoot, but even over the bunker lotsa folks shoot way too much choke for the current hispeed bunker loads.

    JMO of course

    Charlie
     
  4. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    Charlie.. You are right.. Speaking to the US Olympic team.. a #4 and #7 were the chokes they went to first.. Then they made adjustments for weather and altitude.. until I learn correctly what to do.. I'm staying with fixed choke #7 and #10 like the factory suggest.. Then as I get quicker to the first shot.. I'll open things up.. In Italy I use a #5 and a #8..and seem to do pretty well when I do my part..

    Alot of the shooters practice with 28 gram..and use a more open choke.. I'm old school and choke for smoke..

    I guess the main thing is getting to the target.. I don't see much difference if the barrel weights are within .10 kg of each other.. but once you get in the high 1.4s' as opposed to a 1.6???? you'll really see the difference..

    My 1.36 kg 31.5" will get to the target quicker than any 29.5" I've ever shot.. But.. to each his own.. All Good.. Mike
     
  5. sernv99

    sernv99 Active Member

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    so anything over 1.6kg barrel weight wise, I have a high probability in not getting to the second target on time?

    I plan to look at a recoil reducer like G-Squared for the "live birdie" game down the road.
     
  6. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    No.. 1.64 is getting quickly to the heavy side for bunker.. In Italy..they pretty much like low 1.50's
     
  7. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

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    You don't need a recoil reducer for pigeons - just shoot Federals std. pigeon load 3 1/4dr - 1 1/4oz and you'll be fine. My wife doesn't even mind those loads.

    Oh, wait. Ive seen a few bruised and bloody cheeks from K-guns at pigeons. Other than recommend a Perazzi I can't help you. Better go for that reducer thingie.

    Charlie
     
  8. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    I've got 3 bad disc in my neck.. it's not an option..
     
  9. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    When I shot Bunker in the 1980's, 1 1/4 oz. loads were the norm. I shot a 682 Bunker gun with 29.5" barrels 50/50 POI, with Full/full screw in chokes. I still have the gun, and its a killer on everything I shoot except Trap.
     
  10. Hatshooter

    Hatshooter TS Member

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    I'm still doing the same research as serv99, looking for that magic pigeon/bunker gun. the K80 will work, till I find the magic wand. No need to be in a hurry.My K80 is a little heavy. As far as shells for pigeons some believe in 1 1/4- 3 1/4, some believe in 1 1/4 - 3 3/4. no problems with the 1220's fps, but those 1330's are stout. best Page
     
  11. AEST BOSS

    AEST BOSS Member

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    I'm building my Bunker/Helice set-up now. Putting an adjustable Keen rib and ISIS on a classic Browning Superposed Pigeon choked M/F. Plan to have Wilkinson adjust choke when my Bunker game takes stride.
     
  12. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    There is an excellent shooter in Kerrville who shot a very similar setup.. He shot lights out with it.. Good luck.. Mike
     
  13. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    sernv99, before I comment, let me put my biases on the table. I like fixed chokes. I like fast handling guns. Perazzis move just fine in my hands. Krieghoffs and Kolars feel like logs. I wont shoot any Beretta I can afford because of lousy barrel regulation issues. (my Gold E combo was bad, but no where near as bad as others).

    If I were going to shoot the two disciplines you mention I would buy an O/U Perazzi with an adjustable half-rib, adjustable comb and choke tubes. If I didn't mind the MOI difference between flush and extended tubes, I'd go with extended. There may be other guns that handle as well as the Perazzi, so feel free to try them.

    Why choke tubes when I am an avowed fixed choke fan? Because the two games you want to shoot are at opposite ends of the spectrum. For bunker you want as open a choke as possible based on your speed. A chip counts as much as smoke, and in the finals you don't even need a chip. A puff of powder they pack into the bottom of the birds counts as a hit. So you choke for chunks, not for smoke.

    In pigeon, you choke for smoke. You want as many pellets into that bird as possible. You want it incapacitated instantly- not even able to make another wing beat. You want it dead in the air, because even if you hit it, if it lands outside the ring it is scored lost. The standard pigeon load of 1 1/4oz @ 1220fps is all you need. It will pattern well in almost any 12 guage barrel. Even at handicap pigeon ranges, the 1220fps loads arrives only 5/1000 of a second slower than a 1330fps load. If you feel that 5/1000 is important, feel free to beat yourself up.

    A note on fixed chokes. My current O/U barrels didn't pattern as well as other Perazzi barrels I've owned and I was disappointed. I sent them to Kerry Allor and told him to make them into bunker barrels. He reworked the barrels and chokes and sent back a .019" bottom/.032 top combination that works well with all loads from Int'l bunker through handicap 1 1/8oz. I will tell you the bottom barrel (.019") breaks birds convincingly with my favorite handloaded bunker load (24g @ 1300fps) at any distance I've tried it. It won't smoke 27 yard handicap targets, but it breaks them into a dozen or so pieces that fly out in a starburst pattern. That's farther than a typical bunker target is hit, so you get the idea. The .032" top barrel is just devastating.

    For singles, light 8s literally vaporize targets, so if I ever decided to shoot pigeon, I'd not hesitate to use these barrels.

    That being said, if I were to start over today, I'd buy the gun I recommended to you , but I would add an externally selectable trigger to the mix. That way I could use the same gun for all games including sporting.
     
  14. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    As always.. I'm humble to what ZZT says..He experience is vast and pretty much what I see in International bunker guns.. and shooters who are at the top... Live bird.. the old Perazzi at .032/.036 lower.. .045 upper.. The world wide standard for the ultimate barrel for live bird and ZZ.. While it also fares excellent on bunker.. the first shot could stand to be a little more open if you shoot reasonably quick.. Now.. my 2nd shot is usually pretty far out.. and I like all the choke I can get..

    ZZT.. if you could have only 1 fixed choke barrel... how would it be choked for both games??? All Good.. Mike
     
  15. sernv99

    sernv99 Active Member

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    Thanks ZZT, appreciate the info....what does an adjustble half-rib look like? Is it the MX2000/3 barrel rib type?
     
  16. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    Adjustable half rib:
     
  17. sernv99

    sernv99 Active Member

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    ah ok thanks.....

    ZZT: would a 3 notch adjustable rib, a la MX2000/3 configuration, work as well as a half adjustable rib??
     
  18. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    The MX2000/3 was a Bunker standard..along with a flat or step rib MX-8.. We will see if the MX2005 short rib dethrones it.. I doubt that it will.. the biggest advantage I see is a visual aid.. Has NOTHING to do with how the gun shoots.. From what I'm hearing back from my friends.. the short rib holds much promise..but it still looks weird.. All Good.. Mike
    [​IMG]
    My version of a "short rib".. Non adjustable and quite a bit lower than the MX2005..
     
  19. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    sernv99, yes it is like an MX2000/3. I call it a half-rib, but a 1/3 rib or anything like that would do for me. As long as it doesn't go all the way back to the receiver.

    Like PBB, I have eye issues. When I experimented with a higher rib than my MX-15 rib height I stacked brass rods on top of my rib in front and tried different heights. I was amazed at how much better I picked up the bird because my right eye was not blocked by the receiver and rear section of the rib. In fact I plan to modify my current MX-2000RS O/U barrels to half rib simply by sawing off the part behind the pivot point. The only reason I haven't done so already is I'm still trying to find someone with a replacement in stock, just in case.

    Mike, I'd stay with what I have, only because I know how good it is (after the fact). If I could lighten it by .15 kg or a touch more would be perfect. If I were ordering a new, fixed choke Perazzi barrel specifically for bunker and pigeon I'd take 6 and 8 (.024" and .032") if I was being cautious, or 5 and 8 (.020" and .032") if I was being daring. I can't explain it, but there is something almost magical about fixed .020" and .032" chokes in standard Perazzi barrels. They always seem to pattern beautifully and they carry well. My old .032" MX-15 barrel would smoke a second bird on Protection from the 27. I wish I still had that barrel.
     
  20. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    ZZT.. I'll keep you posted on my progress down here.. What weight are your barrels??? what would you consider the ideal length and weight??? All Good.. Mike
     
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