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O/T Handgun Ammo? Again!

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by EXFDX, Mar 19, 2008.

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  1. EXFDX

    EXFDX Member

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    I asked this question a little while ago, but I'm still wondering. I have CorBon DPX in my house and carry weapons on the strength of your recommendations and stayed away from MagSafe, also as recommended. But have any of you heard of ExtremeShock ammo? (URL above) If so, what do you think? If you Google Extreme Shock, you will also find a YouTube piece with a couple of young people who don't seem to know what they're doing, testing a load on a watermelon -- it's pretty impressive even though. Anyone know of any head-to-head tests or comparisons on self-defense ammo? Doesn't have to be video; I don't mind doing some reading.

    Thanks again and thanks for your patience with a similar thread.

    Steve
     
  2. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    Calm down a Watermelon will not hurt you .
     
  3. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    As was said above, a wonder bullet simply does not exist. Prefragmented bullets, or very light bullets at extreme velocities do not exhibit sufficient penetration.

    The best way to get killed in a gunfight is to use ammunition that does not provide sufficient penetration. Use standard weight bullets in standard calibers. Remington Golden Sabre has been tested and is among the best of any defense ammunition available. Full house autos such as 9X19, 40, 45 and revolver calibers such as 38/357 are what is needed.

    Often, law enforcement ammunition is designed to expand AFTER penetrating a barrier or barricade. This is not needed by citizens, and may inhibit expansion in normal situations.

    Remington Golden Sabre, Speer Gold Dot, or Hornady XTP in factory loaded ammunition will get you through any donfrontation you are likely to encounter.

    Using quality ammunition in a quality firearm, combined with quality training will get you "though the fire".
     
  4. EXFDX

    EXFDX Member

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    Thanks, everyone. I'm not especially afraid of watermelons, but that one on YouTube, did seem pretty menacing to me LOL. Also, I did come to fear a melon once…the "special guest" at a fraternity party ,it was heavily laced with PGA which, up until then, was an unknown wonder to me.

    Also, not especially looking for a "magic bullet". My carry gun is a Glock 27 and I was just wondering what was the consensus (if any) on good ammo. I have long since given up any notion of one-shot incapacitating hits; there's way too much research to the contrary, Hollywood notwithstanding.

    So, given all that, looks like the DPX loads will do, or maybe switch back to Gold Dots. But I do appreciate your well-reasoned input…thanks for taking the time to respond.

    Best,

    Steve
     
  5. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    The only immediate stopping shot is one to the medulla. This is done from the front by shooting just at or below the nose. This shot is NOT taught by top trainers. It requires a precision shot, even from a few feet.

    Center-of-mass shots are generally what is taught, due to the inability of the defender to make a precision shot in a panic situation.

    A shot, even to the heart, will give a determined or drugged offender up to 15 seconds to drive home an attack. Obviously, a shot that damages or cuts the spinal cord will cause the offender to immediately lose function below the affected area, but this cannot be counted on.

    Put two shots in the center of the chest, and use second sight technique. This is being ready for an IMMEDIATE follow up. Don't try to put the rounds in the same hole. The more wound channels, the better.

    Also, remember, no matter how frightened you are, you are responsible for any misses. When you think your life expectancy is measured in seconds, all your fine motor skills will go away! Your cognitive brain will go away as well, and your reactive brain will take over. This is where you file your training. YOU HAVE BEEN TRAINING, HAVEN'T YOU?

    For your Glock 27, I would suggest the 165 gr Remington Golden Sabre. And a lot of practice.
     
  6. chatbrat

    chatbrat TS Member

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    Shooting coach. furthermore; with the availability of body armor as evidence by the N. Hollyood Shootout---becoming proficient with a good head shot is paramount---I use small high velocity ammo with crimson trace sights--takes all the thinking out of the shot, also my FN-57 will stop anything out there---I've got the good ammo----Phil
     
  7. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Body armor does make things a tad more interesting.

    I am not a bad pistol shot and if I hit someone center mass twice and they did not go down I suspect I may panic. At close range I would likely be dead.

    It is not practical to carry my gun of choice (Mossberg 500) so I depend on a Kahr 9mm or Springfield XD in 45 ACP. The 9mm has Speer Gold Dots - the XD Remmie Golden Sabers. I do not feel under powered with them.

    There are a lot of good bullets out there. I agree with Sarge that 100% reliability is essential. So I test with 200 rounds before committing to carry a make of ammo in a particular gun. I buy plenty of boxes from the same lot so I do not need to repeat the functioning test (it is expensive to put 200 rounds of factory down range).

    Don
     
  8. T/C

    T/C TS Member

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    Maybe this will help you make a ammo decision for defense. Bout 4 years ago I shot a full size doe (est. 140-50 lb. on the hoof weight) from a treestand @ 21 yards. I used a 4" bbl. .45 revolver, loaded with Federal 230 grain Hydra Shock ammo. I hit her right behind the shoulder blade on the left side. The shot knocked her off her feet, down on her right side. She got to her knees then dropped stone dead, elapsed time maybe 6 seconds. The bullet broke 1 rib on the left side upon entry, took out both lungs and came to rest just under the skin on the right side. The bullet just clipped a rib on the right side. I could feel the bullet under her hide. After skinning said animal the bullet was completly intact, expanded to about the size of a .25 cent piece. The chest cavity (lungs) looked like semi hard jello. My defense .357's and .45's are now loaded with Federal Hyda Shock ammo.
     
  9. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, the new generation of criminal has not only discovered body armor, but also PRACTICE.

    I have, in the past, taught the triple. Pelvic girdle, chest, head, in about 1 second. The pelvic girdle shot will at the least immobilize the body AND HEAD. The worst thing about this technique is the photos the prosecuting attorney uses at your civil trial! IT DOES WORK.

    Realizing that a major caliber pistol has about the same impact as a major league baseball pitch up close, if two COM shots does not affect your attacker, it is indeed time for "plan B". This is a head shot. Just remember, if you miss, you are responsible for the bullet. Also, in a five shot revolver, which is what I carry, if two to the chest do not stop, and the third round at the head is a miss, your gun's fuel tank is getting very low!

    Distance is ALWAYS your friend in a gunfight. Getting away from the offender is the best way to keep him from shooting you. Getting to cover while accessing your firearm and making the offender come to you, or not, is a good strategy when this is possible.

    There are times when an Armed Citizen might feel the need for more than five or six shots. With this comes the extra training and trigger time to become proficient with your auto pistol, and the stoppage reduction drills.

    The pill about carrying is that a revolver is more reliable, but runs out of ammo faster, and takes more dexterity and time to reload under stress. The auto holds more ammo, and is easier to reload but is most prone to jam when you are least able to clear it, under stress.

    Having taught defensive tactics for many moons, I still carry the five shot revolver. During warm weather, when I am likely to wear shorts and a tank top, I will still have the little gun. The big autos will likely be in the car or the house.

    The subcompact Glocks, 26 and 27 are a good compromise.

    One must be willing to do what is needed to live through a lethal confrontation. The high COM shot, at the neck line, is a good option, but takes more training.

    It all comes down to frequent and current training. One must put on the warrior mindset, when at home and when in public. If you are not willing to stop a lethal threat, all the training and money spent will not do you any good. A bad shoot will put you in prison or in the poorhouse.

    Failure to train is training to fail!
     
  10. ricks1

    ricks1 TS Member

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    Shooting Coach well said i carry a 38 air lite I only use a simi auto in my class to show what they are I DONT recommend anyone to carry them.What i do get is the lookes when a show a stove pipe and the mag drops out upon trying to clear it. If you reload load some lite loads and mark them. next time your in class at range fire one if loaded right it will jam the gun then as you bring your hand back to clear hit mag release. No second shot. You will get the people looking around. rick
     
  11. mallardfilmore

    mallardfilmore TS Member

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    All this blather over which bullet is the "one" is a waste of time. Handgun bullets are unreliable when you shoot people because they don't have the velocity to make the bullets perform as we'd like. The difference between a hit with a 9mm and a 44 mag isn't all that much if you don't hit anything that either shuts off the electricity, breaks down the frame or makes the hydraulic system leak out really quick and all of those can leave the bad guy plenty of time to keep doing whatever it was that made you need to shoot in the first place.
    Everyone keeps quivering over the.357 mag being such a stopper. I'd have you ask the trooper that shot the bad guy 5 times with his 357 mag at less than 6 feet with hits that should have been lethal but never even penetrated the guys fat. Oh, you can't ask him because the bad guy shot once with a .22 derringer and the bullet glanced off the trooper's arm, penetrated between the vest panels and cut the aorta and he died in about 10 seconds. The piece of human filth that shot the cop is still alive. Most people and I mean over 90% couldn't make a working head shot quick enough to do any good. Most head shots end up just making them ugly because they don't work that well. The last .40 cal headshot at point blank range just had the bullet follow the contour of the skull and give the guy a headache. The .38 that hit just under the eye and you could see the base of the bullet sticking out of the cheek bone when it was done. I had the chance to talk to a rather well known pistol "expert" who was involved in a shooting. He and the partner shot the bad guy at less than 18" eleven times in the head. In the end the guy came to, asked to blow his nose wherein he blew a 158 gr. bullet out in a kleenex and then proceeded to get up and walk himself to the medical gurney for a ride in the ambulance.

    The folks that yap about the semi auto being unreliable and the revolver that never jams haven't spent any real amount of time shooting revolvers then because they'll lock up just like anything else. You can put them in a coat pocket and they'll always work. This tells me they've never really carried one in a coat pocket. Reach in the pocket of a coat you've been wearing for a while and see what's in there. Dust, a small piece of the gum wrapper that you missed and most of all, lint balls. Get one of those and a piece of thread that's hanging in there wrapped up in the cylinder and you've got a non-working boat anchor. Oh, and if the autos are so unreliable, why has 85% of the law enforcement agencies in the last 20 years and the military in the last 95 years, gone to the auto pistol?
    You'd better be more concerned about having the mental capacity to know what to do when you do shoot and it doesn't work. Not a single person here has ever discussed what's going to happen after you pull the trigger which will open up a rabbit hole that 99% of the CCW carriers and supposed "teachers" ever talk about.
     
  12. Texas Lar

    Texas Lar TS Member

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    Just for thought. Just my opinion. Not a professional. Leo's carry semi- auto's because they are more likely to encounter multiple bad guys. They need the extra rounds. Most civilian encounters will be within 7ft or less & be over in seconds and usually with one bad guy unless you go out into area's you shouldn't be in anyway, or at real late hours at night again in not so cool area's. Five or six rounds should work just fine. You start talking about percentage of failures, semi-auto's by far exceed revolver failure's. Plus, most Leo Dept's require their people to carry semi- auto's. Almost all Leo's carry revolver's for back up. Because they do have the faith that they do work. Otherwise they would carry one large semi-auto & one small semi-auto.Not much weight difference between the snubbie revolver & the small semi-auto. Just my opinion.

    Texas Lar
     
  13. T/C

    T/C TS Member

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    Let me see if I got this right. Your so called "expert" and his partner shot a bad guy in the head 11 times, at a distance of 18 inches, and when the bad guy woke up he blew a slug out his nose? Is that what your expecting us to believe? What were they shooting, bean blowers, rubber band guns? Who told you that story, Mother Goose?
     
  14. mallardfilmore

    mallardfilmore TS Member

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    Sorry T/C that I told a story you can't understand. I didn't name him an expert, the gun media did and I don't think at anytime he ever tried to call himself that. He was however, a heck of a good guy that was taken from us all too early. I had what I considered a rare opportunity to sit and listen to some of his experiences one night at the SHOT show many years ago. By his count, I believe he said he was involved in over 10 gunfights during his years on a stakeout squad. I'm guessing, ninja boy, that number probably exceeds the number of times you've been involved in anything. I'm betting you've never heard of him because his name wasn't mentioned in any video games but the real gun folks will remember him as Jim Cirillo. I didn't judge the story, I only listened as he talked and related what he told me. His telling the story was not meant as entertainment or bragging but a chance for someone who experienced a bad thing to provide insight to others that appreciated a chance to learn without having to go through it.
    Texas: you are incorrect on your assumptions. You carry the higher capacity auto not so you can shoot more but have to manipulate the gun less. Where do you get your info that civilian encounters are 7 feet or less or that 5or 6 shots will do the trick? How do you know? Some cops still carry revolvers for a back up because they are lighter and usually smaller not because they think they'll work. Carry one for a couple of decades or so and a few ounces can seem like a lot.
     
  15. tcr1146

    tcr1146 Well-Known Member

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    To mallardfilmore:

    I read and then re-read your posts. I never did find out what you recommend?! It almost seems you would recommend doing nothing and begging for mercy! Would you care to recommend what you would have us rookies do if the time came?! Tom Rhoads
     
  16. mallardfilmore

    mallardfilmore TS Member

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    Tom: That kind of depends on different factors. How big are you? What kind of clothing do you wear, loose or close fit? Are you going to be willing to pick one or two guns and stick to them as your carry gun or are you going to want to have 10 of them and jump back and forth all the time? My choice of carry gun is based on several factors. I've carried quite a few different guns over the years and I now carry one that I consider to be simple, easy to run and ultimately reliable. I've stood on the square range and watched many millions of rounds go downrange in the last30+ years and this same brand has less failures or problems than any other I've seen yet. That happens to be the Glock. There are many folks out there who will denounce the Glock because they once heard that some guy somewhere had one explode like a grenade or the slide flew off or something but when pressed for details, they don't have any because it's just a story they heard and that probably came off the internet from some kid that thought he was a fiction writer. I've seen a few failures with the Glock but so far they've all been attributed to a couple of things. Poor maintenance, cheap, unreliable ammo and in a couple of cases the top pin above the trigger has broken in two. However, this has never stopped one of the guns. The pin will walk out slightly, kind of as a notice that there's a problem but if you keep pushing it back in, the gun keeps running. I've only seen that happen on .40 guns and those were all high round count guns.
    The Sigma, the XD, the new Ruger SR9 are all some form of copy of the Glock but none of them seem to be able to hang in there with it. The current close copy is the S&W M&P but it's too new yet and the jury is still out. From those that I've fired, they seem to be pretty good but nothing much different than the gun they've mostly copied. Exception being the .40 caliber model that I examined last week that had no rifling in the barrel. Barrel was finished in every other way but the button had never passed through the bore and it was smooth as a shotgun.
    Caliber of the gun is mostly pointless because if you carry something small enough to be convienent, then the shorter barrel reduces velocity enough that the bullets just don't perform like they're intended and few perform like we'd want anyway because the velocity just isn't enough to get the performance desired but it sure beats trying to fight with your fists or stand there like a sheep and wait to be next.
    Look around and see what the people who carry them every day are doing then go put your hands on as many different models as you can. Go to a range that rents them, ask friends and friends of friends to see how many different ones you can shoot.
    If you go with the G19 or G26 size gun, you need to remember that this isn't a target gun and you're probably not going to shoot as much as the bigger gun because it kicks more and isn't quite as much fun, is harder to shoot accurately and so on. That especially goes for the snub revolver because there just isn't as much metal there to help absorb the recoil. If you just can't do the auto thing, then by all means get a revolver but have no illusions from the foolish posts here that say revolvers will always work. They have their own reasons for failure and when they do, they're just as useless as anything else that's failed. They certainly reqire more cleaning than the current generation of Glocks but as long as you're willing to take the time to maintain them, they'll work, usually but from range experience, the Glock will be running a whole lot longer than most anything else.
    If you want to carry and I think we should be able to and should when we can, then you need to be able to run your gear and I don't mean just the gun. If you have your gun in your hand, can you get to your cell phone? If you carry a gun and don't carry a cell phone in this day and age, then I'm sorry but you're an idiot. You have a means to get involved in a deadly force incident but no way to communicate that with anyone? Do you know what to say when you do use the gun? To the bad guy or to the dispatcher you hopefully call? What are you going to do after the shooting has stopped?
    Are you mentally prepared to put your gun on the ground immedately when you're told by a responding officer without trying to turn around and explain what you're doing? Can you accept the fact that when the uniforms arrive, to them, you're just another bad guy holding a gun?
     
  17. T/C

    T/C TS Member

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    Dear Mallard: I'll agree with one point of your original post, that a head shot is difficult to make unless the perp is standing perfectly still. In your case, your "idol expert" (and may he RIP) had the perfect situation. A perp who stood still long enough for 2 shooters to put 11 rounds into his head at a distance of less than 18 inches, and wait, lived to blow out a 158 grain slug out his nose. Quite amazing, one would think that the muzzle blast alone, at 18 inches would have killed him. Maybe they should have used Silver bullets or Kryptonite bullets, as the perp in your story was either a vampire or Superman. So I'm calling "horse pucky" on your related story. Nobody survived 11 shots to the head at a distance of 18 inches or less. Please provide a link to this story, or atleast something that I can reference it to. I'd love to read the facts, as I'm sure others would also.
    Now your claim that handgun bullets are unreliable won't float either. Why is it that everyday I pick up the paper and read, 3 shot with a handgun, 3 dead, 2 shot with a handgun, 2 dead, 1 shot with a handgun, 1 dead. What's up with that? Do these gang bangers have access to better handgun ammo than the rest of the world? Huh? I need not go into my law enforcement history other than I spent 20 years on the streets in patrol, and saw lots, and lots of gunshot deaths by handgun.
    Fact is, you did not tell a story that I failed to understand, you told a story that only the Tooth Fairy would believe. But then you seem to be the expert and have all the correct answers. I wish I knew as much as you do or think you do. I would have retired as the Chief.
    And by the way, just for your general information. Most law enforcement officers that have been involved in shoot outs (those that survived) don't talk about it much. It remains a living nightmare, even after 20 plus years have passed.
     
  18. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Mallard---

    You are partly right, but mostly in the dark, and insulting others for no good reason.

    1. Shorter barrelled guns DO perform better with slightly lighter bullets. I would use the 165 gr Golden Sabre in the Glock 27. And so on. There is proper equipment, training, and the warrior mindset. Nothing else matters in a Lethal Confrontation.

    2. FACT. LEO's typically are issued the auto because they are more likely to have a lethal confrontation with multiple attackers, because part of the job is to pursue and apprehend, and because most of them will not train to be proficient with ANY of their firearms or tactics. Also, it is more cost effective (cheaper) to buy a truckload of Glocks, give 40 hours of training when the firearms are first issued, then 8 hours annual training. It takes less manual dexterity to reload an auto pistol than a revolver.

    3. FACT. Some of the WORST students I have had are LEOS. I have seen them take up to 30 seconds to figure out they hit the mag catch while accessing the firearm from the holster and needed to perform a Tap, Rack, Reassess drill. Double feed reduction drill? Forget it! Eight hours of training annually is a cruel joke when they are in a firestorm on the street.

    4. The scum, Richard Blackburn, who was shot 6 times before he killed SC State Trooper Mark Coates with a lucky shot from a 22, according to Coate's supervisor, was shot by +P 38's, not 357's. The gun was a Magnum, the loads were not. The Trooper turned around and strolled to cover with a dead gun which he never tried to reload, a fatal void in training. From only a few feet, the Trooper was unable to get a solid hit on a stationary target. This is a training failure, pure and simple.

    5. When the backup officer finally arrived, he was out of control, and almost shot two Good Samaritans who were on the scene. He cursed and screamed at the Samaritans and slurred his speech so badly about the only words that could be understood were the "MF" words. He holstered and redrew his firearm over half a dozen times, but never searched or restrained the Samaritans. If they had been Bad Guys, they had numerous opportunities to kill the Trooper due to his lack of training.

    6. Copies of the tapes from Trooper Coate's car and the backup car are available to qualified personnel. I have a tape and it a tragedy of errors from the get go. It is a classic used on how NOT to make a traffic stop.

    7. FACT. The average CIVILIAN lethal encounter is five feet or less and three shots or less are fired. This confrontation (time from OH $H!T to the last shot) is typically over in around 2 1/2 seconds. (Force Science Research Center statistics)

    I did not get this info "from a SHOT show many years ago". I spend around $10K on training and around a month in class and on the range annually. I have around 30 Instructor creds. All are current. This is current data, available to anyone willing and qualified to access this info. As a State of Tenn Certified Firearms Trainer, I have access to some restricted info. I professionally train Law and Security Enforcement, and Armed Citizens. In Tn, Certified Trainers are in such short supply that agencies often use contract Instructors for training.

    As far as a tale about a person taking almost a dozen rounds to the head, and casually harking a bullet out of his nose, others have eloquently made the correct call.

    Finally, as far as a Glock, I use a G-17 for ALL my Defensive and Tactical training and instruction. With proper maintenence, ammo, and GLOCK SPECIFIC training, they are THE superlative duty sidearm. When neglected, fed bad ammo, or put in the hands of an inept Operator, they will exhibit failures and problems just like any other mechanism.

    As one who is credentialed to train Reduced Light Shooting Techniques, I can say they are about the easist sidearm to run in the dark, where the Armed Professional is most likely (80%) to get into a lethal confrontation.

    For those who will not train and who will not carry extra ammo, the Smith or Ruger five shot revolver is probably the best way to go. If any firearm is not serviced while being carried regularly, it is more likely to fail because of lint, dirt, rust, oil contaminated ammo, etc.

    As long as things folks need to know are being put on this thread, realize that almost one in three attacks on Armed Professionals and Citizens are by females, and almost one in five are by minors. A sixteen year old female gang banger with a record, drug problem and attitude to match will shoot you with less hesitation than a career criminal!

    Are you big manly types prepared to shoot a woman, possibly a minor child?

    Some of the worst trainers in my area are retired LEOS, simply because they were trained decades ago. They still live in the days of revolvers and dump bags, when the laws and civil suits were in a different world. Now, everybody has a camera in their cell phone!
     
  19. mallardfilmore

    mallardfilmore TS Member

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    T/C you made my point about not being able to understand the story by asking for a "link" to the story related to me. The link is deceased which means dead so there is no link any longer unless his partner were to step up and tell his version but I didn't get the partner's name so I can't help you. If you were a cop as long as you say, I doubt you'd be all that surprised by someone taking a heck of a pounding in the head and still live.
    Blackburn might have been "lucky" but he's still alive and Coates is deceased. Luck doesn't work to well. The difference in power from a +P 38 and a 357 mag is minimal at best and a little more speed doesn't always translate into more penetration. You might be a trainer but since I'm getting the idea you aren't from the LE side, training the want to be ninja ccw warriors and cops is quite different. The training mandates aren't set by the instructors but by the inept administrators and the majority of instructors believe in what they are doing but receive no backing from the dept to carry out what is needed.
    Watch your one cop shooting tape again and see that coates didn't "stroll" anywhere. He was backing up and trying to talk on the radio which is what you do when the trouble starts. He failed to go to cover like we think he should but we weren't there. Keep in mind he'd already been shot once after a pretty good struggle with this tub-o-lard before shooting him 5 times not 6. The first shot was fired while he was on the ground struggling with Blackburn, that unfortunately missed his empty head, so the thinking might have been a little less than as clear than he'd have liked.
     
  20. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Mallard

    You wrote "The training mandates aren't set by the instructors but by the inept administrators and the majority of instructors believe in what they are doing but receive no backing from the dept to carry out what is needed." I resemble that remark. It is as simple as doing it their way, or not doing it! The lesson plan is from the Law Enforcement Training Academy (TNLETA)

    You have, indeed, stumbled upon the truth on this. To make things worse, thanks to mealy mouthed spineless rulings from SCOTUS, a LEO can stay in compliance of the law and Dept' policy and STILL wind up in court, and LOSE.

    The city/county attorneys and bean counters control the training on the LEO side. For Private Protective Services, which cover Security, and the laws for the Armed Citizen, State Law is on the books. However, an overzealous District Attorney or ambulance chasing bottom feeder can drag a person into court who has stayed within the letter of the law and ruin them financially. Even if you "win" in Criminal and Civil court, the lawyer is the one who wins.

    BTW, Trooper Coates DID stroll away from Blackburn. Although wearing a vest, once he ran his wheelgun dry, he made a quarter turn and stayed in the line of fire long enough to take a stray round under his arm right over the vest, severing his aorta.

    I say stray round, because of the firearm Blackburn was using. ANY hit from the tiny pop gun would be a stray round if fired from over three feet away!

    Once again, after failing to properly take control of the situation, Coates failed to deliver a solid hit from only a few feet away with his service arm. This film is used as a training tool on how NOT to make a traffic stop. Many changes, including guns and improved training were made after this tragic death.

    The org I am with trains P.O.S.T. Law Enforcement continuing education and firearms/non lethals classes, Security Enforcement, and Armed Citizens (I do not like the term CIVILIANS). I train Tactical Handgun, Glock Specific Techniques, Shotgun, and Patrol Rifle on the LE side. Cops pursue and apprehend, something Citizens should NEVER do. They should be a good witness unless they are in IMMINENT threat of serious bodily injury or death.

    For Private Protective Service, I train Handgun, Shotgun, Tactical Baton, Chemical Spray and Non Compliant Handcuffing. The Handgun Carry permit program in Tn is a joke, but there is a lesson plan, and you had better follow it! I also run the HCP program, and always plead with the students to take more training. Some do. Most don't. I will train Citizens in the intermediate and advanced use of the handgun and shotgun. I will run a Citizen on a Patrol Rifle Class, but I do not train Citizens in contol, custody, and Response to Resistance techniques. I will not train LE techniques to Citizens.

    In the 50's, Bill Jordan wrote about how Mexican smugglers, high on Cocaine, could take a .351 rifle bullet to the heart and still return fire for five or ten seconds. The .351 was only about 150 fps slower than a 35 Remington. DAMN!

    Which is better, 7 1/2 or 8?
     
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