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O/T Electric Motors and Electricity

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by joe kuhn, Oct 18, 2012.

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  1. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    After trying to figure out why my son's fan broke I got interested in electric motors and how they work. Here's what I came across in terms of an explanation.

    With magnets, opposites attract and like poles repel. Here’s a picture of a compass pointing north. The magnetism coming from the North part of the earth and the white end of the magnet of my compass have opposite polarity. Opposites attract and likes repel. Simple enough and known by almost everybody.


    joekuhn_2008_030398.jpg


    When I put a magnet next to my compass opposites are about to attract each other and at the same time, like poles will repel.


    joekuhn_2008_030399.jpg


    As I move closer, the needle turns.


    joekuhn_2008_0303100.jpg


    If I move the magnet towards the compass and then pull it away, the compass needle will go all the way around because of the momentum of the needle. If I move it towards the compass and leave it there, the needle comes back to the magnet and stays as in the picture above. In the picture below, it's starting to look like a real motor with something spinning. If I time it just right I can keep the needle going around at a pretty good rate.


    joekuhn_2008_0303101.jpg


    If I substitute a battery and a wire I can get the needle to move, just like I did with a magnet.


    joekuhn_2008_0303103.jpg


    It turns out there’s a cylinder of magnetism around the wire from the electricity. The needle moves just like it did with the magnet. Add in a switch and you can get the needle spinning with the right on/off timing just like I did with moving the magnet towards the compass and then pulling it away. I've tried to draw in black arrows to show opposite fields attracting and red arrows to show like fields repelling.


    joekuhn_2008_0303110.jpg


    Next I coiled the wire around a couple of times to increase the magnetism. The needle moves faster. I don't have a way to measure the speed of the needle, but Johnny said, 'Woah'. Trust me, it moves faster.


    joekuhn_2008_0303105.jpg


    And then I can replace the magnetic needle of the compass with a stationary magnet, add some paper clip arms to hold up the coil, which will do the spinning, and away we go.

    The switch is a bare strip in the insulation of the wire coming out both sides of the coil (top side of wire on each side) so that when the coil turns the electricity comes through the paper clip, but is then shut off because of the insulation, giving the coil a chance to turn all the way around via momentum. The beads help keep the coil spinning with less friction.


    joekuhn_2008_0303106.jpg


    The magnetism coming off the coil pushes and pulls against the magnetism of the magnet to get spin. I'll draw the arrows in next.


    joekuhn_2008_0303107.jpg
     
  2. E. Beaver

    E. Beaver Member

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    Joe:

    Great explination of how motors work.

    Will pass it on to my grand daughter for a science projet at grade school.

    Thanks, Charlie
     
  3. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Thanks. I couldn't find an explanation that was clear so I just kept digging and collecting info until I felt I knew what was going on. Oersted's compass was a key. See above link. The needle in the simulation doesn't bounce like it does in real life. I had to duplicate it to really see what was going on.
     
  4. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    Joe, we already know about motors. What we really need is free energy OK? Look, we will even name it after you if you will invent it. Free energy. That's all we're asking.
     
  5. cnsane

    cnsane Member

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    wireguy:

    www.overunity.com

    More than you could ever hope to read on any facet of free energy
     
  6. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Hah. The free energy magnet motor and the motor made from batteries, a magnet and no wires are the two hoaxes I came across. I was so new to it all I didn't recognize them as a hoax until I studied a little further.

    The magnet only motor is a hoax because magnetism doesn't come off a magnet in the way it spins around a wire with current running down it. A wire has a tube of magnetism around it. Magnets cannot be found or made to do this. Discovering this fact about electricity and a wire was the key piece of information needed for the invention of electric motors. It enables you to pair a magnet with an electrified wire to get spin from the wire as a coil. In a large sense, electricity running down a wire is the harnessing of lightening. Get your kites and keys out fellas.

    The direction of the magnetism from current running down a wire, as shown in this picture, is unique.


    joekuhn_2008_030396.jpg


    Nothing like that is available from magnet companies or in natural magnets. The radial magnet looks interesting but it's not the same.


    orient.jpg


    The video of the magnet only motor is at the top of this post. It's a hoax. The monopolar magnet is theoretical only. There's a hoax out there on that one too.
     
  7. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Here's a video debunking the magnet only motor. He really doesn't explain why it's a hoax.
     
  8. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    And here's the video of the battery and magnet motor with no wires. A battery acts just like a bar magnet in terms of magnetism flow until you add a wire to it. Sorry fellas it's a Hoax too.
     
  9. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Next week: a kite in a thunderstorm with a wire string, a brass key, and a Leyden Jar.

    FYI the brushes and armature in your car starter do the same thing your switch button does.

    Figuring out how things work is a very satisfying pastime, especially when the little light in your head comes on.

    Just don't start messing with nuclear for a while, OK?

    HM
     
  10. likes-to-shoot

    likes-to-shoot Well-Known Member

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    The problem with your theroy Frank is the hot air will be shut off in Nov. lol
     
  11. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    Cool stuff Joe for sure.


    The attached link is an explanation of the electric railgun. We will soon see weapons like these deployed on naval ships.


    They work on the same electro magnetic principal as your simple motor.



    Guy B.
     
  12. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    Joe if you are ever down in Texas, you can go through my "recycle" pile, or junk yard as our little niece calls it there are hundreds in not thousands of motors in there, from the size you were working on up to about 1500 hp

    We work on some big ones, the biggest I've ever worked on was a 17,500 HP on a compressor at a Union Carbide air separation plant, it ran on 4160 V as do some of the ones in my junk yard, damn I wish Bopahl India never happened that was one of the best gigs I ever had, they gave me a $33,000 open PO, just never let the plant go down

    I really need to get the guys scrapping, but the price seems to be staying up there so it's my toy fund
     
  13. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    HM - electrons will keep me busy for a while. Protons and neutrons loom on the horizon.

    Guy - that rail gun is pretty interesting. Will have to explore the Lorentz force with a simple model.

    Catpower - thanks for the invite. I'd have a ball collecting one of each type of electric motor. Would be good to do a survey.

    Guys - I added some pictures above and drew in a few more arrows. That little motor is begging to be taken apart and analyzed more.
     
  14. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I tried to draw in the arrows and I don't understand why the coil spins in the direction of the big arrow. Since opposites attract, the coil should spin the other way, shouldn't it? It doesn't.


    joekuhn_2008_0303111.jpg


    I checked the top of my magnet - it pulls the North pointing needle of my compass towards itself. I checked it several times. The whole top side of my magnet is the same.


    joekuhn_2008_0303112.jpg


    And I put the compass in place of the magnet. Here it is below with the power off. Needle pointing North.


    joekuhn_2008_0303114.jpg


    And here it is below with the power on. Opposites attract, the same as the top of the magnet. What am I not getting?


    joekuhn_2008_0303113.jpg


    The magnetism of the coil is opposite the North pointing needle of the compass and so is the magnet. Oops, I see it. They have the same polarity (South) and like poles repel. Hah! To get it to go the other way I can either turn the magnet over or reverse the wires on the battery. Interesting confusion between the arrows and polarity. Both poles can have arrows to show a magnetic field, but you need to know what the polarity is in order to know the direction of the spin. I've added the polarities to the picture.


    joekuhn_2008_0303115.jpg


    You can count on this rule: Opposites attract, likes repel.
     
  15. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Actually I think I've still got it wrong. I should have labelled them as 'N' instead of 'S'. Back to basics - opposites attract, like repel. I've drawn in some of the polarities in an early photo. Polarities should have been included all along the way.


    joekuhn_2008_0303116.jpg


    You may have noticed the polarity of my compass changed. I left a magnet sitting next to it for a day and it switched. May have been part of the confusion on my part. Below is the polarity today (power off). The red end is pointing North whereas the other day the white end was pointing North as you can see above.


    joekuhn_2008_0303114.jpg


    And did you know some batteries act like magnets? I can get a compass to spin by waving a AA battery past it. Not all batteries do this though.
     
  16. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I wanted to look at the magnetic field around a wire again because it's a key part that makes electric motors work. Is it really a cylinder of current with one pole and which pole is it?

    Here's the starting point. The Earth's North magnetic field is to the right. The red end of the compass needle has the opposite polarity - South. Opposites attract. To the left we have the inverse. We have the earth's South magnetic pole and a needle end with the opposite polarity N - the white end of the needle is North polarity. Again, opposites attract. The switch is open so no current is flowing through the wire.


    joekuhn_2008_0303123.jpg


    Next I push down on the switch and the current flows. The needle moves to the near side. So the polarity of the magnetism coming off the wire is like the Earth's North magnetic pole. But is it just North? Is there a South pole to the magnetism coming off the wire? All magnets in nature or man-made have both poles, North and South.


    joekuhn_2008_0303118.jpg


    Next we move the wire off the compass to the near side. The switch is still closed so current is flowing. If, around the wire, there was a South side opposite the North, which we have in all normal magnets, the needle ends would flip and the white end would point to the wire. But that's not what happens. The needle goes back to pointing towards the Earth's North Pole. There's no flip at all as we move off the compass far enough away to let the needle go back to it's starting point.


    joekuhn_2008_0303119.jpg


    Let's Try the other side. Same thing. The needle doesn't swap ends as we move across the top of the compass with the wire. It just smoothly goes back to pointing to the Earth's north pole.


    joekuhn_2008_0303120.jpg


    Let's try underneath. Now that's interesting. The red end of the needle goes from pointing North to pointing away from us. That tells us we really do have a cylinder of magnetism around the wire. The North field comes around from under the compass and attracts the red end of the needle.


    joekuhn_2008_0303121.jpg


    Notice there is some bias in the needle when current is flowing through the wire. The needle doesn't point straight East or West when the wire is above and below the compass. The needle points to the North East and North West. Don't know why, but I think we do have proof that there's only one polarity, North, and the field is a cylinder.

    I also lifted the wire, battery and switch up above the table and spun it on the same axis as the pivot point of the compass. This walked the needle completely around in all directions. Sorry, no picture because I don't have enough hands to make this happen and take a picture.

    What will happen if we reverse the battery? Then the compass points away from us at the start. Not much else is new.

    But what about that bias? Maybe the bias means the field is more like a funnel that a simple cylinder. Hm. It's always something...
     
  17. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Here's a nice demonstration I found with plotting compasses. The wire carrying the current is difficult to see but it comes down from above and ends in the exact center of the circles. Why they have other wires with alligator clips in the demonstration, I don't know.

    Notice that all the compasses point in the same circular direction per the red and white tips. This is a much better setup than what I was struggling with. It clearly shows a field in the shape of a cylinder.


    joekuhn_2008_0303124.jpg


    See video link for a dynamic demo.
     
  18. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Joe, the reason the compass needle moves when the battery is near is that the compass needle is the magnet, and it is attracted to the steel case of the battery.

    HM
     
  19. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    I hope you have running thermal overload protection on those magnets Joe. Don't forget you can go like 600% FLA on your circuit protection. I don't know if they make a .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 amp circuit breaker though.
     
  20. TEXASZEPHYR

    TEXASZEPHYR Member

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    Joe, back many years ago, there was a show on tv "Mr Wizard". He did lots of simple home experiments such as yours as a way of teaching kids scientific principles. I dont know if any of his clips are available on u tube but it might be worth checking on. Have fun with it and make sure you get your kids involved.

    Bob
     
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