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O/T AR 15

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by maclellan1911, Nov 25, 2007.

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  1. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    I have a nagging to buy a AR 15 of some sort. Looking for Opinions of the best out of the box target/varmint gun 1000/1200 range. Been hearing a few things about 223 chambered guns not liking surplus ammo? So 5.56 chambering would be the way to go, no. Im restricted to Massachusetts laws. Have looked at Stag, because i am a lefty. Bushmaster amd S&W. I see Remington has jumped into the market, rumor has it these are bushmaster? I am looking for mainly fun target gun that will feed and shoot just about any ammo.
     
  2. ljunatic

    ljunatic Member

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    1000-1200 yards out of the box? a tall order,I assume you will be using a scope for this distance

    I like RRA complete rifles with the "Wylde" chamber... 3/4 MOA gauranteed
    Here is an example of their latest offering
     
  3. skiroy

    skiroy TS Member

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    I assume he meant $1000.00 - $1200.00 price range not yards. I also am a lefty and have a LH AR15 that I pieced together and had Geofrey Corn build up for me, Great job and a tack driver too! It is a little heavier than I had anticipated, however that is the only change I would've mede if I had it to do over.
    Laurence
     
  4. ljunatic

    ljunatic Member

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    LOL, you may be right skiroy

    I was thinking varmints at 1000 yards... tough shot
     
  5. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    Remington is getting into the AR market - from what I understand seeking to be a gov't/mil contract supplier. No news on civilian sales yet. The Bushmaster connection is there in that Cerberus has hired some former Bushmaster people to run the company.

    Bushmaster lower receivers along with some others are made in New Britain, CT
    by Continental Machine Tool (CMT) The President of Stag arms is closely linked to CMT.

    There aren't too many AR-15 MANUFACTURERS per se. There are more AR ASSEMBLY shops.

    The receivers mostly come from CMT or LMT (Lewis machine tool)

    The AR-15 platform is rapidly becoming the most adaptable, versatile multi purpose rifle platform in the world. Evidenced by companies like Remington and S&W jumping on the band wagon. Just like with the 1911 pistol. 20 years ago - all the gun rags were crowing about the "rise of the wonder nine" and how the 1911 was passe. Now, there are more gun companies with a 1911 in their lineup than ever before - including S&W and SIG!

    It's hard to beat a Bushmaster, Stag or Rock River from the box. Personally, I like Rock River's match trigger best of all and Bushmaster's 1:9" twist barrel is chambered for 5.56 NATO and will also work fine with commercial .223 Remington, which to many not sufficiently informed people is NOT universally interchangeable and not exactly the same cartridge. The pressures and headspacing are different. Bushmaster is using a "compromise" barrel to accomodate both.
     
  6. ricks1

    ricks1 TS Member

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    223 auto is NOT a target gun if you are going to pay 1200 then go with a colt
     
  7. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    I respectfully disagree. Colt has had some serious, worn tooling issues in recent years. I once owned THREE Colt Match targets. I currently own - NONE.

    Some of their 16" barrels shoot better than their 20" ones! Their bore machines are worn and "wander". This was the case around five or six years ago when I had those rifles. I haven't heard of any improvements.

    I'd say, go with Bushmaster, or Rock River, or Stag, but that's my opinion based on my experiences.

    Also, Colt receivers are the only ones that have a different receiver pin size on the market. The others use the small pin, Colt uses the large pin. I recommend the other brand names.
     
  8. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    1:9" twist as advertised on the picture above - is the best compromise you can use with 55 grain to 62 grain ammo. I've heard of specially throated single shot ARs using VLD (very low drag) bullets of 75 to 80 grains, out to 1,000 yards or more, but I don't believe the barrel advertised above is one of them.

    With that said, a claim of 3/4-MOA at 100 yards is a good one! (that's 3/4" group at 100, or 1.5" at 200-yds)

    Old service rifle standards were sloppier than that.
     
  9. JDinTX

    JDinTX Member

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    If you are willing to pay a little more. Armalite is the way to go. I own 2 Ar10 .308's and can attest to the quality and accuracy. I have been very pleased. JD
     
  10. JDinTX

    JDinTX Member

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    AR10 T with Hornady AMAX match ammo will do what many handloaders work a LONG time trying to achieve. JD
     
  11. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Steve is right - Colt quality is NOT at the level of other target rifles. They are way out of the price line for performance for dollar spent. Their most disappointing gun ever was their 24" stainless varmint rifle. It's sad when a decades old beater SGW would shoot circles around it.

    I don't know what Mass law restricts you to. I would assume no flash hider or threaded barrel at a minimum.

    The Remington R15 is made by Bushmaster, and they're owned by the same conglomerate now. Here's a link to their page (you have to subscribe to email to get this link otherwise as there is no direct link on their website):
    <a href-"http://www.remington.com/products/sneak_peek/model_r-15_vtr.asp>Remington R15 VTR (Varmint Target Rifle?)</a>
    The full size 20" model is quite nose heavy, like all heavier barrel models with a metal freefloating forend. I'm looking at the shorter 18" carbine model because the forend is substantially shorter, thus it weighs less. If you are shooting from a bipod for sage rats or prairie dogs, the weight is not really an issue. I'm walking distances and am shooting without a bipod, so I want less weight.

    [​IMG]
    Full size with 20" barrel

    [​IMG]
    Carbine with 18" bbl, shorter forend, fixed stock

    [​IMG]
    Carbine with 18" barrel, shorter forend and telecoping stock.

    The telescoping stock is nice for saving space in truck cabs, and for adjusting for length of pull for heavy winter clothing. On the other hand, it isn't quite as rigid as a fixed stock, and they are notorious for catching mustaches and beards. I think the fixed stock is more comfortable. (And yes, I do have AR's with the telestock.)

    The biggest advantage to the Remington is that it is almost fully camo'd. Because I hunt coyotes, this is a nice feature. Straight black lines are not common in nature, and their movement can give you away. Camo, if moved slowly, breaks up the gun and tends to look like foliage moving.

    As noted above, Rock River Arms http://www.rockriverarms.com/ also makes a coyote rifle. But they also make other varmint and predator rifles as well.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    (This shows the available barrel lengths for the Varmint Rifle.)

    I do not like the stainless barrel for coyoting. I did not know RRA had a coyote rifle out with a black barrel. Must be fairly recent. The stainless could be covered with black heat shrink tubing or black/camo tape.

    RRA offers substitution of the black A2 stock and grip with green, and the Hogue overmolded forend can be had in green. This would help break up the guns outline, though it isn't full camo.

    I've tried the ACE skeleton stock, shown fitted to the Coyote Rifle. I have mixed feelings about it. Yes, it's comfortable, having a dense foam sleeve on the upper tube. But, I often hunt in wet weather, and the foam absorbs water. The foam is nice in hot weather, as black stocks can absorb a lot of heat. A camo stock would not get as hot, so that's pretty much a moot point.

    All ove the above guns from RRA will shoot a 3/4" group. (I'm trying for find specs on the Remington R15's fluted barrel.)

    One nice feature of the RRA varmint/predator/coyote rifles is that they come with an oversized winter trigger guard for use with gloves. However, this part is available seperately, and is an easy retrofit. If I go with the Remington, I'll just swap one on.

    I currently have an AR flattop with a 20" heavy 1" stainless match barrel. With my loss of strength in my left arm, it's too heavy for me to hold up for periods of time, which is common for coyoting. I want a shorter, lighter gun. That's why the carbines are attractive. I could just order an upper from RRA or Bushmaster for my flattop, or even rebarrel it. But if I get a new rifle, then I can give my flattop to my son.

    Bushmaster has various rifles suitable for varminting and coyoting.

    [​IMG]
    This is the Bushmaster Varminter with a 24" barrel in black or camo, or black with a stainless barrel. It's very muzzle heavy. It's also the most expensive of all these rifles.

    That's pretty much it for the Bushmaster gunus designed for hunting. However, their V-Match series, designed for competition or tactical, work well for varminting and coyoting. These come in 16" carbine, or 20" and 24" rifles.

    [​IMG]

    As for other companies, I have no experience with DPMS. Avoid American Spirit Arms (even if they were to make a good product their customer support sucks). Olympic Arms makes a really good Stainless Ultramatch barrel, but the rest of their gun is not up to the quality of Bushmaster or RRA. However, the Oly Arms with the SUM barrel is far more accurate than the Colt varmint rifle. As for Colt, leave them for the collectors who just have to have the Colt name. It's a damn shame, but Colt is a shadow of their former selves when it comees to quality. From a political standpoint, Colt ticked off a lot of gun owners when, in an effort to engratiate themselves with politicians, they stripped off all the "evil" features of their "civilian" guns. Speculation is that they did this because they were losing contract sales to FN over quality issues. (At the time, a lot of use switched to FN internal parts in lieu of Colt internals, for those same quality reasons.)

    BTW, if you look at a bullet drop charge for .223 55 grainers, for the kill zone on a coyote, which is a 5" circle, the gun should be sighted in at 240 yards. This gives a point blank of 280 yards. So out to 300 yards, you don't have to hold off fur, though at 300 yards the crosshairs will be on the coyotes back. 100 yards should be set to be 2.4" high. (This is why for longer ranges, 400 to 600 yards, I use a 22-250.)
     
  12. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    BTW, the Rock River Arms holiday sale appears to be 10% off. (Can't check rifles without an FFL and an account, but the uupers, which anyone can order, are 10% off.)
     
  13. bill1269

    bill1269 TS Member

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    I have a bushmaster varminter with only some trigger work done and shoot handloads and I shoot it in 200 and 300 yard varmint match's.Hit's eggs consistently at those range's.Also make's for some easy work on groundhogs out to some pretty good range's.
     
  14. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    Thanks for the info, just to clear it up 1000.00 1200.00 $ range Do not exspect anything over 250 yards. Maybe someday if I get out to flat open land.
     
  15. steele

    steele TS Member

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    Just remember 2 words, Les Baer. His guns are in a league of their own in the AR line of rifles. I have a Stoner SR-25 (.308) which will shoot one hole groups @ 200 meters. My Les Baer .223 will do almost as good. 69 grain Federal match, .623 @ 200 meters, that's just a shade under 5/8". Like comparing a K-gun to a Mossburg. You got to shoot good ammo, if you want good results.
     
  16. sum-rifle

    sum-rifle TS Member

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    Just buy an Olympic Arms UltraMatch and be done with it.
    Olympic Arms make very high quality and they make the best barrel out there, the "Supreme UltraMatch"
     
  17. kolar-bkpt

    kolar-bkpt TS Member

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    Maclellan 1911,

    Hi, saw your post and wanted to know if your interested? I have a DPMS AR15,
    with a 20" heavy barrel & harris tripod. Its never been fired and was built for us lefties. If your interested email me and I'll send you pictures.

    Gary
     
  18. FranzSodia

    FranzSodia TS Member

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    Hey, I think DPMS and Fulton Armory FAR offer left handed receivers on their guns. With Fultons you can get Magpul stocks, Geisele two stage match triggers and Krieger barrels. However like all accessories they are more expensive. John E.
     
  19. JonP

    JonP Member

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    For the rookies: I'm going to get a 223 in the near future and haven't yet decided on a gun. Right now it's a toss-up between a Rem. 700 (heavy barrel) or the Savage 12FVSS but, have been thinking about the AR clones.

    How are the triggers on these guns? (like the Rock River Arms above) are they light and crisp? adjustable?

    Thanks for your time.

    Jon
     
  20. magnumshot

    magnumshot Active Member

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    A .223 chamber is for .223 only, and a 5.56x45 will shoot both.
    If you want it to shoot like a target rifle, you'll need to buy specific quality ammo or load your own, have a free floated barrel, and a match trigger.
    Stock AR triggers are heavy and generally suck.
    Different twist rates are for different types of bullets, as are different rifle configurations. 1-9 is an all purpose twist rate and works well with any size bullet. 1-7 was made for long, heavy bullets.
    Unless you are going to get real serious and load your own, just pick up a basic 5.56 1-9 twist chrome lined or stainless 20" barreled plinker of any brand and add a match trigger. Use 20 round USGI mags.
    You'll be as happy as if you bought a free floated barrel DCM model with a special chamber and match trigger.
     
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