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NY Ammo backgroung checks?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by smsnyder, Mar 20, 2013.

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  1. smsnyder

    smsnyder Active Member

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    Just got a program for the Empire Grand in NY. Will shooters be required to get background checks in NY to buy shells?
  2. XP100

    XP100 Active Member

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    Law goes into effect 03/15/2014 if not repealed before then.
  3. skeet_man

    skeet_man Active Member

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    Law actually goes into effect no sooner than 30 days after a system is put in place to facilitate the background checks, or January 15, 2014, whichever is later, assuming the law stands.

    So this will be the last year for no background checks for ammunition sales in NYS. Also REALLY doubt anyone will even bother selling ammo at Cicero anymore, certainly won't be available through the club itself, since they won't have the resources or wherewithal to comply with the law. Then again, in all likelihood, this law will cripple competition shooting in NYS anyways, so there probably won't be any shoots in NYS to attend.

    Have fun standing in line for 45 minutes and filling out paperwork to buy a box of shells for the shootoff you just missed because it took too long. And have fun trying to do it as a non-resident. And don't count on getting a box of ammo from your buddy, as you'll both be committing a FELONY transferring ammunition privately without a background check.

    Also it is presumed that this law extends to components (powder, primers, wads, shot, hulls, bullets, brass, ect) as well, since they are all federally classified as "ammunition". So you'll need a background check to buy a bag of wads too, and it will be a FELONY to give/sell said wads to a friend if he doesn't go through a background check when you give them to him.

    Yep, that's what gun control laws get you...
  4. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Active Member

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    Sounds like whoever sent out the program jumped the gun.

    Going to be run by the state police. Have no idea how they are going to do it without delay, especially for visitors from out of state.

    Can anyone imagine the number of background check request over the course of a weekend, especially during hunting seasons? One shell or a 1,000, background check required.

    Not sure many gun clubs will be in the shell selling business (as each individual sale must be approved) and you can forget about the guy selling shells out of the back of his truck at any shoot.

    The sad part is, this ammunition background check requirement is not getting much play, not by the papers, or from gun or sport associations within the state.

    ________________________

    I have not seen anything in writing banning the sale of reloading components without a background check and hope its not the case.
  5. skeet_man

    skeet_man Active Member

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    Joe- From everything I've read online, reloading components are considered "ammunition" by the feds, so I imagine NYS would use the same guidelines.

    Its already screwed me. I order Duster 20ga and 28ga wads from Recobs (they are pretty much the only source). They are no longer shipping ANY ammo or components to NYS b/c they won't take the time to figure out what the law actually says, and that the ammunition portion doesn't even go into effect for at least another 10 months.

    I plan on buying all my supplies and ammo in OH and PA if it becomes too difficult to do it in NY. I can be to PA in 2 hours, or OH in 4, so if I have to make a few trips a year and stock up, so be it.
  6. mike campbell

    mike campbell Member

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    "From everything I've read online, reloading components are considered "ammunition" by the feds..."

    Please give a source for what you read and/or where you read it?
  7. 870

    870 Active Member

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    First, the NYS program is fine as far as this goes, they didn't jump the gun at all. Someone above is just misinterpreting the original post. It goes into effect on 1/15/2014 at the earliest, and that WILL NOT happen. They have pretty much admitted they will not have a system running by then.

    The poster above that said this is not getting much press is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. It is the part of the law that will have the largest impact on target shooters and it isn't mentioned at all.

    I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that reloading components are subject to this law, and if you are short a box or 2 for a shootoff I'll be glad to give you some. It applies to commercial sales, it doesn't mean I can't give a box to my kid or a friend to use.
  8. skeet_man

    skeet_man Active Member

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    Mike- I saw it right after the law passed, so it's been a couple months. The person who wrote it was speaking in terms of Massachusetts laws, which are similar to what NYs, and they consider components to be ammunition, based on the federal definition of "ammunition". Since the NYS police have been given oversight of the interpretation of the law, I cannot envision them NOT applying the same standards to components as ammunition, since any reloader could turn those components into said ammunition, thereby circumventing the ammunition background check requirement.

    870- As far as I read the law, the ammunition law applies to ALL transfers of ammunition, commercial or private.

    ""SELLER OF AMMUNITION" MEANS ANY PERSON, FIRM, PARTNERSHIP, CORPO
    RATION OR COMPANY WHO ENGAGES IN THE BUSINESS OF PURCHASING, SELLING OR
    KEEPING AMMUNITION."

    The argument could be made that anyone who HAS ("keeping") ammunition is in fact a "seller of ammunition" as defined by the law. Theoretically, the way the law is written, simply POSSESSING ammunition in NYS would require an ammunition dealer's license. It all depends on what the state's definition of "business" is. I suppose the argument could be made that if you GAVE someone ammunition, it wouldn't qualify as a "business" transaction, however if you charged them for it (even if you charged them what it cost you) it would be. However, if the state defines you as a "seller of ammunition" simply because you POSSESS ("keep") ammunition, than you'd fall under the same requirements as a regular dealer, and would have to complete a background check for ANY ammunition transfer.
  9. skeet_man

    skeet_man Active Member

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    Rick- Thanks for the link. So lead shot and hulls are OK, but primers, powder, bullets, brass, and wads are all considered "ammunition", and therefore will be regulated and require background checks under the new law.

    Imagine, having to have a background check run (and pay a $10 fee) to buy a bag of Claybusters. That's what we're going to be living with in less than a year in NY.

    And if things continue the way they are now, and all you can buy is single 50 round boxes of .22lr, you'll be paying $5 for your ammo and $10 for your background check...
  10. southjblue

    southjblue Active Member

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    I don't think you'll see that happen in PA----You NYs are welcome----I can make a 500 mi rd trip twice a yr and hoard----I've been doing that any way.

    Gov Cuomo-----Just like his pappy---The apple don't fall far from the tree and he thinks he may be president one day-----Good ole NY---

    George@SJB
  11. 870

    870 Active Member

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    Ian,

    When it states "engages in the business of..." That means just what it says, a business. If you read further into the statute, you will see that it says all commercial transfers have to be made through an ffl or an ammunition seller. It does not apply to non commercial transfers.

    I will tell you I'm more concerned about the reloading components issue you raised after seeing Rick's post.

    This thing has to be killed before January.
  12. skeet_man

    skeet_man Active Member

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    So if there is no law pertaining to a private sale of ammunition, then there is no penalty for "straw purchasing" ammunition for your buddy (you buy the ammo, do the background check, then sell it to your buddy, who may or may not be able to pass the check). So if that's the case, they built a loophole right into the law.

    My only thought is that I believe the state will consider ANY transfer/sale of ammunition to be "commercial" in nature, and per the law:

    ""SELLER OF AMMUNITION" MEANS ANY PERSON, FIRM, PARTNERSHIP, CORPO RATION OR COMPANY WHO ENGAGES IN THE BUSINESS OF PURCHASING, SELLING OR KEEPING AMMUNITION."

    Again, it comes down to what the state interprets "commercial" and "business" to mean. Is it a "business" transaction when I give you a box of shells, and you give me $5? That's the question.

    Another quandary. My buddy lives about an hour and a half from me. From time to time, I'll go down and pick up supplies and ammo for him at our local supplier, since they are only 15 minutes from me. Now the products go on his account, and he pays for them, but I pick them up. Who would the background check be done on, the actual purchaser (him) or the guy picking it up (me)? Near as I can tell, it would be him, in person, and would prevent me from picking up orders for him.
  13. 870

    870 Active Member

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    Don't read more into what I said. Yeah, selling a box to a friend on occasion would not be a business, but I wouldn't push it. Similar to - at what point do we presently become a dealer and need to get an ffl for firearm sales, I'm sure some push that limit.

    Your last point, it would be the person buying it in person. it is clear the transfers must be made in person. It isn't even in place yet, so there are many issues that remain unknown until tested.

    This thing is really bad, is very short sighted, and will cause so many problems we haven't even thought of yet.
  14. skeet_man

    skeet_man Active Member

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    My workaround will simply be to go to OH or PA. Already know a number of large and fairly priced suppliers b/w the two states. In fact, our local supplier (Beikirchs) has already opened a PA location, and my gist of it is that if things don't get better up here (in NYS), they are shutting the local location down and relocating all operations to PA. If that happens, it will hurt any type of shooting TREMENDOUSLY in this area, because most shooters buy from them, and those that buy from local gun shops are buying from them anyways, just through a middleman, since all the local shops buy from Beikirchs anyways. If they leave town, any reloading supplies or ammo left will go up at least 50% in price overnight.

    The problem is that not everyone will be willing to go to the extent that I am, and this will largely crush competitive shooting in NYS (and competitive skeet in NYS at least has been on the brink for a number of years already).

    For those of you who don't think this will affect you:

    You go into Walmart at 8pm Friday night:

    You- I'd like to buy 4 boxes of AAs please.
    Them- OK. That'll be $30 for the shells, $10 for the background check, you need to fill out this paperwork, and it'll take 45 minutes for the background check.
    You- (begrudgingly) OK.

    You fill out your paperwork, pay for the ammo, and they call you in.

    Them- Sorry, but your ammo purchase has been delayed.
    You- But I need those shells for my singles event at 9am tomorrow
    Them- Sorry, but they aren't leaving here with you. Check back in 7 to 10 business days to see if there have been any updates.
  15. railman

    railman Member

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    TO 870: SO the NYS program is fine. Are you a moron. Have you bothered to go into the law. This is one of if not the worst piece of legislation to become law. If you think it is fine, God help you, because you need. it.
  16. 870

    870 Active Member

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    railman:

    I'm probably more familar with the law than most people you know. But I don't get your complaint about the NYSATA's 2013 Shoot Program? What exactly did I miss in it that makes me a moron?

    Or is it possible you completely missed the point of the references to the "program" in the original post and Joe's post above. EDIT: OK, I see the problem, I should have said Empire Grand program, not NYS program. Still pretty clear references were to a shoot program, but I'll admit to being moron for the day.
  17. Jon Reitz

    Jon Reitz Active Member

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    870,

    Good post!

    Jon Reitz
  18. 870

    870 Active Member

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    Just saw that NY is backing off on the 7 round mag issue. You will still be able to buy 10 round and under mags, even after 4/15/2013. Also means Ruger 10/22s and Rem 597's will be ok. Of course, we can only load 7 except at ranges etc.

    At least a step in right direction.
  19. skeet_man

    skeet_man Active Member

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    870- That ended up not being the case. Skelos wanted it, Cuomo said no, Skelos backed down. Law still stands unmodified from its original form.
  20. 870

    870 Active Member

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    That's what I get for posting something from the newspaper! They just posted it this afternoon. I know the law hasn't changed yet, but they quoted Silver as saying the 4/15/13 effective date will be suspended along with other changes they are making.
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