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Not shooting at a target...

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Shooter R, May 18, 2009.

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  1. Shooter R

    Shooter R Active Member

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    I'd like to know if I'm missing something here. During this last weekend, I shot on a handicap squad. We were using voice release. I don't know the exact details of what was going on as I was reloading at the time, but there was a shooter 2 posts after me that at least once per trap had a target that was thrown on his command, but he didn't shoot at it. I didn't see if he made a move toward it or not, but I did hear him call. He remounted and called for another, and shot at it. I believe he ended up with a 93. No one questioned him during or after (I guess we all forgot about it after each trap).

    Would anyone here look at the scorer after that happened and ask him, or her, why the failure to fire was not a lost, if the shooter does not supply an explanation, ie: they thought it was a freak target, or had some chips come out with it? For the record, all my targets, and all the ones I watched, were on time, whole, and leagal.
     
  2. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Believe it or not i had the same thing happen to me on a handicap squad i was on at the Rend Lake shoot. The guy called for a target and did not shoot. He did this 3 times on one 25 and 3 times on another. I didnt want to cause a sceen but it was my understanding of the rules that after 2 FTF in one round the 3rd is a lost. I believe the guy flat was picking targets. What are you to do?---Matt
     
  3. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    Shooter R,

    Legally the shooter you describe did nothing wrong. A shooter is allowed 2 failure to fire (FTF) per sub event (25 targets). Any other FTF within the same sub event would be called as a lost target assuming the target met all the requirements of being a legal target. The scoresheet should reflect the lost target as a FTF.


    Eric
     
  4. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    Grntitan,

    Your guy was playing by his rules. It's up to the other shooters on the squad to speak out and say something both to the shooter and the scorer. It's not about causing a scene it's about fair play and the rules we all try to follow. I'm a bit surprised that the scorer didn't say anything.

    Eric
     
  5. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Eric--There is the part that didn't happen. The scorer did not call FTF he did not mark it as FTF and after the 2nd one he did not call the 3rd one LOST. What are we to do as the rest of the squad? Should we tell the scorer or the shooter or just let the guy cheat?---Matt
     
  6. Shooter R

    Shooter R Active Member

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    So you're saying... you could mount, call, track a target, then flinch, or determine that for some other reason, you're not likely to hit a target, and then just NOT SHOOT AT IT? And you can do this twice per trap, with no explanation.

    I read the rules on FTF but it didn't seem real conclusive, as mixer described, as there also seemed to be references to not shooting a whole, leagal target that appeared on time, as this was to be called LOST. If it were OK, why don't more shooters "PASS" on a couple now and then that seem hard (or flinched) other that get a little ridicule from other shooters?
     
  7. canada

    canada Member

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    The shooter may have been getting slow pulls. The wireless voice calls still can give slow pulls. especially if they aren't working 100%. Especially the wireless ones. At a shoot this year, I received a number of slow pulls with the wireless ones.

    Also depending on the way you call, some of the voice calls don't pick up when your call starts, but rather when it gets louder, or ends. As in the target comes on the "L" and not the "P" of pull.

    Pat Lamont
     
  8. Shooter R

    Shooter R Active Member

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    canada, I admit I occasionally do get slow pulls from voice release. I've even found myself calling louder, or accenting the "P" part of pull which causes gun movement prior to seeing the target. Maybe I'll not shoot at those if they seem "not on time". I know they've costed me targets, as I am so programed to see a target at exactly a certain interval after my usual call.
     
  9. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    Grntitan,

    Are you sure the scorer knew the rules about a FTF? No you do not let the guy cheat, you must say something. What good are the rules if you let someone bend them to his advantage. It might be a stretch but suppose you lost a $5000 purse to that guy because of his bending the rules.

    Eric
     
  10. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Pat---Thats BS. He was getting very consistent pulls like the rest of our squad. I do know what your talking about and that just wasn't happening here. Like i said before it bugged me but i didn't want to cause a sceen. The man was older than i was and i was always taught to respect your elders. After heading home and then reading this thread it started bothering me as to what i should have done.----Matt
     
  11. bobdog

    bobdog Active Member

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    Voluntarily refusing a legal target should be a LOST, the way I read it. It's not optional.

    "C. LOST TARGET

    "The referee/scorer shall rule, “LOST”:

    "2. When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant’s
    recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the
    contestant voluntarily does not fire;

    Seems to me that the Failure to Fire rules apply only when the shooter attempts to fire and the gun malfunctions, the wrong barrel is selected, the safety is accidentally left on, or similar stuff. If the bird is legal and you called for it, you gotta shoot at it.
     
  12. Charlie Becknell

    Charlie Becknell Well-Known Member

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    Bobdog is correct. A legally thrown target that is not shot at and is voluntarily turned down is a lost target. I don't like lefts from one but I do the best I can.

    Charlie
     
  13. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    bobdog---Thats what i was looking for. Now that ,that has been clarified what should i have done seeing that the score keeper didn't do a thing?---MATT
     
  14. al391claybuster

    al391claybuster TS Member

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    Bobdog, better read the rules again. In the FTF section, it says flinch is considered a FTF. If I mount the gun, call for a bird, it appears, is a legal target, I start to track the bird, and I flinch to the point of not shooting. It's not lost, it's a FTF. Every shooter on the line is allowed 2 in a sub-event by the rules. Are you going to tell me, my brain, and arms I didn't flinch? Have you ever flinched to the point of wondering if you should stop shooting? Most shooters that don't understand, are the first to call cheater. Thanks David.
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Several things could have happened that would qualify as a Failure to Fire (slow pull, flinch, safety on, no shell in gun). The shooter should have helped the scorer with an explanation of why he did not shoot. The scorer should have called "lost" if he did not notice anything wrong with the target. If the scorer would have called lost, I suspect an explanation by the shooter would have been forthcoming.

    It is the responsibility of everyone on the squad to assist the scorer and make sure the rules are followed. Not all scorers know the rules well, and not all shooters know the rules well. Sometimes the shooters who do not know the rules well are the ones who are most critical of the scorer for not knowing the rules.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    The shooter prob'ly percieved the targets he passed on as slow pulls. Perhaps because he was anticipating? Occasionally I fall into the bad habit of anticipating the targets, when I do.....if I don't see the target exactly when and where I expect to, it seems "slow" (but I always shoot at it anyway). Then when I tell myself to just slow down and don't move the gun 'til I see the target and read it's flight the "slow pulls" disappear.

    I've seen shooters who turn down targets constantly for (I believe) this reason......They usually get away with it 'cause they'll just re-mount and call for another target as if they had a perfect right to it and the typical meek little kid that's keeping score doesn't challenge it. It SHOULD be marked "FTF" and after the second one per subevent they SHOULD be called "LOST".

    John C. Saubak
     
  17. bobdog

    bobdog Active Member

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    Pat, I wouldn't call a slow pull a failure to fire. I would call it an irregular bird - a "no target", and shoot again, whether I hit it or not. A no target bird doesn't exist and you must shoot again.

    I don't honestly know how to classify a total flinch, but I can't recall ever seeing one so severe it prevented firing. I do recall an older shooter I think at the Illinois State shoot who had had a stroke that affected his right hand and he told us all about it before we started. Everybody gave him a pass out of pure courtesy, although technically we shouldn't have. He shot in the 80's, so who cared? He was happy as a clam just to be out shooting a match.

    What I can tell you for certain is that the word "flinch" does not appear in the ATA rulebook. The only way I can see to wriggle around the lost bird rule is to say that the shooter didn't "voluntarily" choose to not fire. Chances are, however, that if you had a flinch so bad you can't fire at all, you'll do it more than once, and you won't be in the running anyway.

    For most shooters, a flinch is just an excuse to start cussing about the bird just missed. I flinch more often than I like to think about, but in my case, my gun jerks all over the place and goes off in the general direction of the bird. Most of the time, what you're calling a flinch is when the shooter is simply late getting on the bird and decides not to shoot, pretty much like John Saubak described it above.

    David, I wouldn't dream of calling you a cheater. That would be bad manners. You call them as you see them. I hope you don't ever develop the kind of flinch you're talking about.

    As far as I'm concerned, however, I know how I call it if it's my bird: if I let a legal bird go by, I take the lost bird. No excuses. I actually flinched at a club shoot in Singles on Sunday, and it cost me a class win. I went home with a 98 and some of the Lewis chump change. That's just the way it goes.
     
  18. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    bobdog

    "What I can tell you for certain is that the word "flinch" does not appear in the ATA rulebook."

    That is true, although the rulebook says.

    "A contestant shall be allowed two (2) failures to fire in Singles and
    Handicap events, for any reason other than stated in Paragraph C.,2.
    above"

    This is Paragraph C.,2.

    "2. When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant’s
    recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the
    contestant voluntarily does not fire;"

    Now isn't a flinch "any reason other than stated in Paragraph C.,2."?

    If so I would say that a flinch is a failure to fire.

    Bob Lawless
     
  19. canada

    canada Member

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    bobdog,

    I agree you shouldn't shoot a slow target, but if you do, it's either a dead or a lost bird though. You can't re-shoot it. Just like it was before voice calls.
     
  20. bobdog

    bobdog Active Member

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    Bob, it must be so. It all turns on the word "voluntary", and only the shooter involved really knows the truth of it.

    Canada, it seems to me like a late bird does not "appear promptly" after the call as required by the C2 rule, so it's a "no target", and it must be shot over, whether the shooter fired or not.

    I don't insist that I'm right about this, but that's how I read it.
     
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