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"No Target" Rules Question

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by FormerMarine, May 18, 2009.

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  1. FormerMarine

    FormerMarine Member

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    Here it is short and sweet:

    Shooter calls for a target and it comes out with the center puched out. Shooter shoots target. Scorer does nto call "no target". Next shooter in line stops the squad and tells the scorer the target was broken. The scorer then announces that the shooter must shoot the target over. Shooter then points out that there were previous incidents that he did not bring to anyone's attention. Thus brings the controversy........

    Can anyone on the squad stop the squad for this?

    Should the scorer be "asked" if it was a broken target, not told that it was and let him/ her come to their own conclusion?

    For the record I am neither the "shooter" or squad mate just an interested party. The rule book makes no mention of a scorer missing the correct call and someone on the squad bringing it to their attention. For that matter (as far as I can tell) it makes no mention of s shooter chipping a target and calling it lost and whether or not the squad can reverse the scorers decision as well all have done or will do.

    Thanks in advance for the answers and help.

    Bill
     
  2. Mike Michalski

    Mike Michalski Member

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    Not sure if it's in the "book" either, but in my experience, a broken target is a broken target and can be called by anyone on the squad. But, hey, I've been wrong before.
     
  3. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't matter what happened before. The rules are very clear, regardless of the results, the target must be shot over. While the shooter who broke the "no target" might be upset at having to shoot it over, it's not their choice. If the scorer missed calling a no target any member of the squad can call it, how that might sit with the scorer is another story.

    Eric
     
  4. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    mixer, the rules are very clear. Here they are, excerpted from the 2009 ATA Rule Book, page 29.

    B. BROKEN OR DEAD TARGET
    A target (called “Dead”) is one that is fired upon and has a visible broken
    piece from it, or one that is completely reduced to dust. The referee/
    scorer shall record a target dead when it is broken in the air.

    C. LOST TARGET

    The referee/scorer shall rule, “LOST”:

    1. When the contestant fires and fails to break the target whether
    missed completely or when only dust falls from it. A “Dusted Target,”
    is a target from which there is a puff of dust, but no perceptible piece
    is seen; it is not a dead target; or

    2. When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant’s
    recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the
    contestant voluntarily does not fire; or

    3. When an illegal target, a freak target, or a target of a markedly
    different color is fired at and missed. A contestant may refuse illegal,
    freak or off-colored targets, but if he/she fires at the target the result
    must be scored;........

    FoemerMarine, the scorer was clearly wrong on this call. Typically, the next shooter stops and calls the scorer's attention to the error. If the next shooter does not, any squad member may. This is a rules question, so ask for a referee if there remains any doubt.
     
  5. N. J. BOB

    N. J. BOB Active Member

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    I had it called on me with in the last month. No harm No foul they were right and I just shot it over.
     
  6. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    ZZT,

    I agree with your posting but the question was about the "no target" rule which states and I paraphrase from the ATA rule book: "another target shall be allowed when in a single target event the target is thrown broken, regardless of the result of any shot fired"

    Eric
     
  7. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    FormerMarine:

    If a scorer misses a 'no target' situation (or any other scoring error) it is appropriate for squad members to point out the error in an effort to get it corrected. Nevertheless, the scorer's call is final even if it is incorrect.

    There are two situations where a scorer's decision might be overruled.

    1. If a member of shoot management is observing the event, that member of shoot management could overrule the scorer. An example would be a referee officiating a shoot off.

    2. A shooter participating in the event may file a rules protest or appeal to shoot management.

    In my limited experience, appeals are rare. Successful appeals even more rare.

    sissy
     
  8. FormerMarine

    FormerMarine Member

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  9. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    "Shooter then points out that there were previous incidents that he did not bring to anyones attention......."

    He should have brought them to the scorers attention when the incidents occurred, they're history now.......

    John C. Saubak
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    FormerMarine

    "Shooter then points out that there were previous incidents that he did not bring to anyone's attention. Thus brings the controversy........"

    FormerMarine you refer to everyone as shooter so it is difficult to understand just who made this statement. However it doesn't seem to matter who actually made this statement the shooter who had to reshoot or the shoot that stopped the squad, the scorer has the final say. There should be no controversy the shooter that made that statement new that when those "previous incidents" occurred that they should have been corrected and said nothing. So who was he trying to cheat?

    Below is a section of Section VII, A it say that the scorer has final say. If the scorer had told the shooter that pointed the broken target to shoot. No controversy if he allows the reshoot again, No controversy

    "SECTION VII OFFICIAL SCORING"

    "A. PROCEDURE"

    "1. The official score is the record kept by the referee/scorer on a sheet
    furnished him/her by shoot management. The referee/scorer’s decision
    on whether a target is dead or lost is final, subject to review only by
    the shoot committee or other governing body."

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. FormerMarine

    FormerMarine Member

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    Bob,

    No one was trying to cheat anybody. The shooter who called the stoppage did not see, nor did anyone else see or call a stoppage for his broken targets. That is not the crux of the argument anyway.

    The argument is the fact that general practice is when a target is ruled lost and any of us (trapshooters) sees a piece come off we routinely stop the scorer and let him know it was a dead target. That's what was done with a "no target" situation yesterday and it was deemed the wrong thing to do.

    According to the rule book there are no provisions for anyonoe stopping the squad if there is an error made in a call, lost, dead, or no target. The scorers do the best they can but like every other official are bound to make mistakes. General practice dictates that we (the squad) do a sort of policing of the scorers yet accoding to the rule book there are no legal provisions for this.

    I'm a fan of past practices and for me someone calling it a no target when I shoot it and break it is far outweighed by (A) shooting a bad target and missing it (then by the rules it is lost) and (B) catching a scorers error when I chip one that is ruled lost and my fellow shooters agree that it was a dead bird.

    Just my opinion and like I have been told in the past....opinions are like.....
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The scorer/referee may make a mistake. Anyone on the squad can suggest to the scorer that the mistake be rectified but it is the scorers final decision. A very good scorer who looks at 1000 targets in an afternoon can miss something. Most scorers are good and most shooters are honest. This makes the system work well.

    Pat Ireland

    PS- I hate it when I smoke a target that comes out broken and then miss the target I shoot over.
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    FormerMarine

    "The argument is the fact that general practice is when a target is ruled lost and any of us (trapshooters) sees a piece come off we routinely stop the scorer and let him know it was a dead target. That's what was done with a "no target" situation yesterday and it was deemed the wrong thing to do."

    "Shooter calls for a target and it comes out with the center puched out. Shooter shoots target. Scorer does nto call "no target". Next shooter in line stops the squad and tells the scorer the target was broken. The scorer then announces that the shooter must shoot the target over.

    As far as these to quotes they are entirely to different case scenarios. The first refers to seeing a piece come off a target ruled lost. "general practice is when a target is ruled lost"

    The second is a broken target coming out of the house and being shot at. "comes out with the center puched out"

    Which is not a target now either you are not stating the case correctly or you have not presented all the facts you decide is it "No Target" or "Lost Target"

    You came here and asked a question everyone that responded gave their opinion or interpretation of the rule involved I did the same yet you managed to put this in "Boob" I showed you no disrespect yet you choose to call me a name. Please remember it is not my fault you are stating your question incorrectly as I see it you come away looking like the Boob.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. FormerMarine

    FormerMarine Member

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    Bob,

    "Boob" was an honest typo that I have since edited. My apologies.

    I don't feel that I stated anything incorrectly in theory both of these events are the same yet they were not looked at the same. Both are dependent on someone other than the scorer making a call yet there are no provisions in the rule book for this occurrence.

    I didn't post this to start a fight or to hurt anyone's feelings. I was trying to get a feel for what the general practice is in other parts of the country as well as any interpretations of the rule book for shooters who are more knowledgable than myself.
     
  15. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    FormerMarine no problem if it was typo it was a tyro.

    Respectfully these targets are not the same. A target that is thrown broken is a no target and according to the No Target rule

    "2. In single target events when the target is thrown broken, regardless
    of the result of any shot fired.

    It is a no target and must be shot over. If the scorer did not agree and ruled the target dead the shooter that brought it to the scorer attention would be over ruled as it is the scorer that has final say.

    A lost target a totally different situation.

    "1. When the contestant fires and fails to break the target whether
    missed completely or when only dust falls from it. A “Dusted Target,”
    is a target from which there is a puff of dust, but no perceptible piece
    is seen; it is not a dead target;"

    If someone calls it dead and say he saw a piece off the target and the scorer agrees it is ruled dead if the scorer disagrees it is rule lost.

    The target that leaves the house with no center should be shot over if however the scorer does not agree you move on no controversy.

    The scorer ability to make a call on the I saw a piece/the target was broken before he shot. Makes the need for a rule about who calls the target dead or lost non-necessary.

    Bob Lawless
     
  16. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    mixer, you can paraphrase all you like, but no such language, or approximation thereof, appears in the 2009 ATA rule book.

    Anyway you slice it, shooter shot at a broken target. The shot must be scored. Scorer was incorrect in requiring the shooter to shoot the target over again. 2009 rules.
     
  17. ric3677

    ric3677 Well-Known Member

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    We had dozens of broken targets yesterday at each trap at the shoot and they were ruled no target as they should. Makes for a long day. All this to save a few cents per target?

    Rick in Mt.
     
  18. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    zzt

    "you can paraphrase all you like, but no such language, or approximation thereof, appears in the 2009 ATA rule book."

    zzt you should do a little more study in the rulebook or a little less writing about thing of which you now nothing. Below is a direct quote copied and pasted from the ATA on line rulebook

    "E. NO TARGET

    The referee/scorer shall rule “NO TARGET” and allow another target(s)
    in the following instances:

    1. When an allowable “Failure to Fire” as described above occurs.

    2. In single target events when the target is thrown broken, regardless
    of the result of any shot fired."

    Bob Lawless
     
  19. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    ZZT,

    After you remove your foot from your mouth, you can offer an apology for your statement regarding what I posted.

    Eric
     
  20. ks5shooter

    ks5shooter Member

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    Formermarine are you gonna shoot the 1000 at Pinebelt?I may be going looks like weather will be good......Don
     
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