1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

“No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights"

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Lkn4rocks, Aug 7, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Lkn4rocks

    Lkn4rocks TS Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2007
    Messages:
    259
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    *

    How would you react as your door was being smashed in during the serving of a “No Knock Warrant”, especially if the warrant had been obtained using false information? With laws of this nature are we moving toward a police state?

    There's a vast potential for danger on every search warrant that gets executed, people don't fully understand what that danger is, especially during the serving of a “No Knock Warrant”.

    Click on the URL above and read just one of many stories of the outcome of “No Knock Warrants”: http://www.macon.com/198/story/105571.html

    .
     
  2. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,450
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    Scary...all the way around.
     
  3. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,353
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    No question it is problematic-- but you know what the practical difference is?

    Its getting the warrant- less justification

    because the difference between knocking, announcing police and momentarily waiting- on a regular warrant and no knocking- could be 5-10 seconds-- it doesnt mean you have to wait for the door to be open- if you believe criminal activity is going on inside harmfull to someone or something or evidence might be destroyed

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  4. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,680
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    I just love paranoia!

    Curt
     
  5. Sgt. Mike

    Sgt. Mike TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    301
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    We needed very special circumstances for a "No Knock Warrant". Our world is changing and so are the rules. September 11, 2001 changed our country and we will become our own worst enemy. Michael
     
  6. hunter870

    hunter870 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    263
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    There's a place and time for no-knock warrants. That 5 - 10 seconds or more that was mentioned can be a very very long time when it's you standing on the outside and you know the people inside have violent histories, are probably armed, and every reason to resist and/or destroy evidence. Executing warrants is a dangerous, but necessary activity - and in this area the warrants are done night or day.

    That being said, when you go through that door you try to reduce the danger to all involved. It's considered mandatory to identify yourself as you enter and announce your presence and authority. It's also mandatory to wear identification or uniforms that show you are the police.

    Sounds like these officers did all of that, the defendants resisted with deadly force, and now they are seeking a defense in court for their actions. I understand the question regarding what would YOU do under these circumstances, but these defendants aren't you and me. They were criminals, and that is how they reacted.

    Yes, police agencies make mistakes and/or act on false information. In cases where they were careless in verifying what an informant offers or deliberately use false information, they should be held accountable.

    But throwing out no-knock warrants because it's dangerous makes no more sense than throwing out arresting criminals because it's dangerous.
     
  7. slowdp

    slowdp TS Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    779
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    Whatever happened in the case where an 80 year old woman was killed by police serving a no-knock warrant on the wrong address? She had a gun in her house dress pocket and opened fire. They returned fire and killed her.
     
  8. Michael Jobe

    Michael Jobe TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    592
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf
     
  9. zanaidoo

    zanaidoo TS Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    16
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    We all must watch too much TV because this thread seems to ask (2) questions:

    (1) "How would YOU react as YOUR DOOR was being smashed in especially if the warrant had been obtained using FALSE INFORMATION?"

    (2) "With laws of this nature are we moving toward a police state."

    As a paranoid gun owner that normally keeps some type of home defense weapon on my person or close to where I sleep I'm not sure how I would react to a no announced entry into my home except with what ever force I could counter with.

    This deals with your 4th amendment rights that our forefathers fought to establish and yes I do believe that this is stepping into line towards that of a police state type issue.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  10. hunter870

    hunter870 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    263
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    Hmmmm. How WOULD you react to the door coming down and a half dozen uniformed police officers, all shouting POLICE! FREEZE! SEARCH WARRANT!

    You'd open fire on them?

    I doubt it.

    Because you're not basically violent, not holding drugs, have no bodies buried in the back yard, and not prone to attack the police. You might tell them it's a mistake and they're wrong, but you'd comply and get it straightened out when the confusion was over. You might or might not bring in an attorney and sue the city if they're in the wrong. You might or might not sue the individual officers. But if you knew they were the police, you wouldn't point a gun at them and you wouldn't shoot at them. In part because it's not the nature of a law abiding citizen, and in part because it's suicidal.

    These two idiots in the first article did just exactly that - and that's what they're on trial for.

    If you did deliberately open fire or point a gun at them...then you are very very confused, which is possible, or I've misjudged you badly.
     
  11. slowdp

    slowdp TS Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    779
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    Are you going to sit by quietly until you can be sure the people yelling "POLICE - SEARCH WARRANT" are really the police. I think not, especially if the house were dark and the light in your eyes blinded you. There would be no way of knowing who was on the other side of the light. A smart crook would be protecting himself by saying he was the police. I would start blasting but there would probably be no need for a trial because they would kill me in an attempt to capture me while I was shooting.
     
  12. hunter870

    hunter870 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    263
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    and that would mean....you win?
     
  13. shadow

    shadow Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,445
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    What's to keep a criminal from announcing that he/she is a police officer as they burst through your door?????
     
  14. hunter870

    hunter870 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    263
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    It would be a group of officers, and quite candidly, nothing would keep the badguys from doing what you said. But let's look at the odds.

    By a HUGE percentage, search warrants are served on the appropriate people. I"m guessing probably more than 99 percent. No knock warrants are somewhere in the same percentage. Personal experience is that it's even more likely than that, but I'm being conservative in favor of your argument. Home invasions by badguys dressed as the police are probably a smaller number than "wrong house" scenarios.

    Odds are by a huge margin that if someone kicks in your door and announces police, then you're a criminal and they're doing what they should be doing.

    Eliminating those situations, odds are very good that in that tiny percent chance that you're not a criminal and they have the wrong house, if you respond with deadly force, you'll (depending on the outcome) either be shot or looking at prison.

    If in the miniscule chance these are badguys dressed as the police, and you resist with force, you're still working at a huge tactical disadvantage.

    I'm not telling you what to do. Just figure the odds.

    We're talking about an occurrence about as likely as getting struck by lightning. And trust me, while you may think your local police are tactically deficient at what they do, there is a selection process for entry teams that dramatically increases the likelihood they'll be able to deal with your resistance. The goal in a noknock entry is to be in control BEFORE you get the chance to resist.
     
  15. hunter870

    hunter870 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    263
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    amen.
     
  16. Jim Brown (the puller)

    Jim Brown (the puller) TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    131
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    slowdp,

    Mrs. Johnston was the 90+ year old woman mentioned in the news article. She was nearly totally deaf and probably did not hear an identifying call by the police. She kept a handgun in her bedroom and opened fire with it, whereupon the police returned fire and killed her.

    If memory serves me correctly, surviving relatives are suing the city and the police for their mistake.
     
  17. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    25,254
    Location:
    Deplorable Bitter Clinger in Liberal La La Land
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    Unfortunately, all too often, *some* cops yell "POLICE!" at the same moment or after they've busted down the front door. We've had some armed gangs in the area kicking in doors to rob people (home invasions). Are you going to wait to see who's kicking down your door unannounced so as to ascertain their intentions? Or are you gunna light them up?<br>
    <br>
    The police need to realize that their intel MUST be perfect and that they've made absolutely sure that they've got the right people and the right home. This isn't Nazi Germany with Goering admonishing his police to shoot first and ask questions later, and telling them he'd protect them if they made a mistake.THAT is a police state, and, unfortunately, *some* police have taken that same attitude.<br>
    <br>
    The Portland po po did a raid on a drug house. Unfortunately, the suspects moved out TWO WEEKS before the raid. The landlord hired a hispanic man to clean up the property and do yard work. He heard a rumbling noise coming down the street, and turned to see what it was. At that moment he was struck in the arm by a rubber bullet fired from a grenade launcher. It broke his arm. The cops did not identify themselves - they just shot. Fudda wuckup. He never even got an apology. The official policy of the Portland po po apparently is to never apologize, no matter how much they're in the wrong.<br>
    <br>
    In another case going bacl a couple decades, an elderly couple lived in the mountains east of Longview, Washington. Their property was a private parcel within the boundary of the national forest. The government tried for years to get them to sell or do a land swap, but they refused. One day they got raided, and the husband tried to defend himself and his wife from unannounced intruders who looked like a ninja gang with guns. He was shot and killed. But hey, it's OK, because it's the cops. The informant, never identified, said that they had a pot growing operation, which was absolutely false. The widow couldn't handle the property herself, and eventually sold it to the government, who threw up roadblocks for other potential buyers. I don;t think you have to be paranoid to wonder just how coincidental this was.
     
  18. Don Steele

    Don Steele Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,541
    Location:
    Florida's beautiful E. Coast
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    Odds of being struck by lightning...1 in 600,000. Population...something like 300,000,000. That would mean 500 of these "incidents". Seems a little high to me, especially if the whole purpose is to prevent the destruction of evidence...If the suspects get a few extra seconds during which they are somehow able "destroy evidence" sufficiently to ruin the legal case...BIG DEAL. IF they're such "bad guys" in the first place that their heinous activities justify this kind of cowboy tactic...they will manage to get caught WITH EVIDENCE soon enough. We're not saying let'em off the hook...just take the few extra seconds necessary to KNOW(not just think you know) the right people are inside when you go through the door. Anything less is not only unfair to our citizens..it's grossly unfair to the law enforcement officers involved who might have to live the rest of their life with the knowledge they murdered an innocent person.
     
  19. Dahaub

    Dahaub Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,309
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    I never read about the no knock warrants but I did get a visit from two deputies about a year ago. I was just finished mowing the yard and going into the house and noticed a deputy car drive up the driveway. I stood by the back door waiting to see what they wanted while the driver got out with what turned out to be a warrant and the passanger got out and stood by his car door. The driver says a name he called it like it was my name. It wasn't and I turned my head and said no he then was walking toward me and said you aren't and he called the name again I walked toward him to look at the paper and said no I don't know him and the passenger policeman was reaching for his gun. The driver policeman read the name one more time and then the address. He had transposed the two numbers of the address. I live at 68 and the warrant was for 86. Easy mistake to make but if I had been arguementative at all or had run into my house and closed the door I'm sure those nice guys would have kicked it in to talk to me. I'm not in favor of those warrants without the police being in hot pursuit. Just my personal opinion. Dan
     
  20. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,648
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    “No Knock Warrants” / “4th Amendment Rights

    Mine your doorway.

    HM
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Search tags for this page
fourth amendment and no knock warrants
,

is a no knock warrant part of the 4th amendment

,

no knock and 4th amendment

,
no knock warrant 4th amendment
,
no knock warrant on wrong house
,
no knock warrants
,
no knock warrants and the fourth amendment
,
sue broken door no knock warrant