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No bead on her gun

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by yakimaman, Sep 1, 2011.

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  1. yakimaman

    yakimaman Well-Known Member

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    We're starting Fall league at a local club and have a young woman on the team who is just starting trap shooting - she tries hard, hits a few, misses a lot. She's shooting a Beretta RL 3901 that she bought new 3 weeks ago from the dealer center where the league shoots and tonight I took a look at her gun so I could show her what I meant about using the two beads to ensure she was getting the same sight picture (not to aim, just same mount) each time. Not only did she not have a mid bead, the front bead was missing - just a hole. She said it had never had a post there. I advised her to go find her salesman and tell him it needed to be fixed. She found him and he told her it was not important as good shooters don't use the bead anyway. So, she's going to pay for a lesson from this salesman and he is going to show her how to shoot her gun. She said she's been using the top of the receiver as a "sight". I think the salesman if full of $hit and she's getting bad advice. Any comments?
     
  2. leadvail

    leadvail Member

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    Can't help people who won't help themselves.

    BOB
     
  3. johnboy

    johnboy Member

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    The salesperson is right, but one needs to understand that the beads offer a reference point that may help determine correct comb height. Most instructors will check the pupil relationship to the rib at the beginning of shooting clinics and adjust the comb height. A pattern board is the bottom line and once you adjust the POI where you want it, beads become like tits on a boar.
     
  4. ysr_racer

    ysr_racer Active Member

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    I won C class at this year's CA State Sporting Clays Championship with out a front bead.

    How's that even possible?
     
  5. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    How's that possible? You're unconsciously using the bbl or rib, if you have one, as a reference point through your peripheral vision as you converge on the target. Take the bbl/rib away and you won't hit many. Believe me, I've tried. When the BarraKuhna's batteries went dead, I learned all about visual references to the gun in about 5 targets. It was an ATA event and I dropped 4 of my last 4 in the round. I don't know how I managed to hit 1.

    I say it's an unconscious thing because it happens so fast most shooters aren't aware of it and don't want to become aware for good reason.

    I'd say yes, have the beads put back on the gun. Without them the bird/bead relationship is nowhere. I'd also wait until the gun dealer's guidance fades and show her what to do by fake shooting her nose without a gun. Keep your eyes on her nose and swing your imaginary gun through where you are looking. Fake shoot her nose when you get there. Pow. Start from a lower left hold, lower right and then from below. Have her repeat it on you. You'll be able to check her cheek weld and upper body turning at the same time.

    Good luck.


    Joe
    [​IMG]
     
  6. cubancigar2000

    cubancigar2000 Well-Known Member

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    I dont use the sights and am a believer in the fact that you should look over the barrel and point the gun instead of aiming it. However I certainly would be unhappy if I bought a new gun and the sights were missing
     
  7. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    This salesman should be selling used cars.

    Don Verna
     
  8. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Since he already has given bad advice about use of beads (especially for new shooters), will not fix a problem that the business that he works for is responsible, now somehow thinks he has knowledge to teach! Lady is willing to pay for this!!!!!

    My thoughts would be that this is a nice looking lady and salesman is definetly up to no good!!! But I darn sure would try to keep her from paying him for lessons.
     
  9. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    It's very tough to teach proper gun mount and fit if there is no way to referance it. I use the beads for this and once fit has been established, I generally remove them or black them out.

    I hope this A$$hat doesn't turn off this new shooter by taking her for a ride.

    ss
     
  10. yakimaman

    yakimaman Well-Known Member

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    And that was exactly my point - once you know the gun fits and it's shooting where you're looking then the beads can go away - but she has no point of reference at all. Pretty tough way to start - new to shooting, new to guns and new to Trap - will see how her "lesson" goes.

    rm
     
  11. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    How many top shooters in skeet, trap, or sporting clays, shoot w/ no beads on their gun?
     
  12. daddiooo

    daddiooo TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Beads are a necessary piece of equipment for a "new" shooter to reference a consistent gun mount. SS is right. Please discourage her from paying this sales hack to give lessons. She needs to go back and insist he install the beads. (both)

    Car salesmen don't give driving lessons and this guy shouldn't be giving lessons either.
     
  13. vpr80

    vpr80 Active Member

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    The salesman is a low-life SOB. First and foremost, he sold her a gun with a part missing, not good! Second, he's giving out bad advice. Third, he's trying to screw her over further by charging for lessons.

    Just tell her to get the bead fixed and installed AS IT CAME FROM THE FACTORY!

    Also lessons are a great idea, but NOT FROM HIM!
     
  14. mike campbell

    mike campbell Active Member

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    "How many top shooters in skeet, trap, or sporting clays, shoot w/ no beads on their gun?"

    I can think of one busy sporting clays instructor who travels the country and has students take their beads off. I imagine he has a shopping basket full of them by now, unless he resells them. He, OTOH, has a bead on his gun when he competes.

    Two of his proteges give lessons locally and introduce a lot of kids to shooting....without beads. Both of these guys are decent shots, but not "top" shots, and I've noticed they struggle with shots that require a bit of "presision" with a shotgun. That would be hard, fast, driven, shallow quartering angles. I have my weaknesses but those targets are bread and butter to me and I'm fully conscious of my bead passing up the butt and out the beak, slapping the trigger with just inches of perceived lead. I can't hit those targets with any consistency (and neither can they) by just pointing the shotgun "out there in front."

    What these "beadless" folks are emphasizing is not shifting focus or "checking" the bead which , of course, leads to slowed, jerky, stopped swings and a shot behind. I'm OK with removing the bead as an exercise to demonstrate that you can break a target without one. I'm not OK with the idea of teaching beginners to shoot without one. It's a gimmic, a parlor trick. with so much emphasis on the snake oil formula of shooting without a bead, these students have other hurdles to overcome. Generally, without being able to recall the bead/barrel reference when they missed, they don't know how to correct on the next shot. All they can do is move at a differenet pace to generate more or less lead. Lead is important in sporting clays but not nearly so important as reading the line. And I believe it's much tougher to read the line of a complex, stalling, transitioning, backsliding, sideslipping target without a good awareness of exactly where the muzzle is.

    The problem is not the bead. The problem is not focusing on the target. Once you've demonstrated the importance of not checking the bead, it's time to teach target focus IN SPITE OF THE BEAD.

    Suppose you had a kid who sucked his thumb. Do you find ways to teach him that thumb sucking is bad, or do you just amputate that bad old thumb?
     
  15. blkcloud

    blkcloud Active Member

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    I shot my first straight in skeet with no beads..
    My daughter won two state championships with no beads..
    Sent her gun to Giacomo to have a unsingle barrel fitted to the receiver and her o/u barrels came back with beads.. she has won a state championship, a silver at the junior olympics and a national championship with beads.. IMO once your gun is set up to hit where your looking you dont need the beads..
    On the other hand.. if you cant consistently mount your gun exactly the same way each time.. you need the beads..
     
  16. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    Excellent post mike campbell, post of the year material IMO.

    I did a little survey at the Grand one year, looked for beads on guns in the rack, saw damn few without beads..... even on top dogs guns.
     
  17. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    Your peripheral vision needs something to reference off of to provide feedback to your brain that the sight picture you need to see to break the target is correct. If you don't have a bead to reference off of, you'll reference off the end of your barrel, which is a much less accurate way to do it (think of it as trying to sign your name with a pencil (bead) vs trying to sign your name with a chisel point marker (barrel), which one will yield more accurate results?). Sure, you can break targets with no beads, but then again, you can also break targets from the hip consistently if you shoot enough of them, that doesn't make it the correct or best way to do things...

    You obviously don't want to look at the bead directly, but you do need it there as a frame of reference.
     
  18. goose2

    goose2 Well-Known Member

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    I have shot some of my best scores with a gun that didn't have any beads on it and I am a AA shooter. I shoot the gun equally well with beads. I think the need for beads is very over rated.
     
  19. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    An advanced shooter that is familure with their gun will have no problem shooting it well without the bead(s). This is a new shooter with a new (to her) gun. Having the front bead is a necessary item at this point in her shooting development.

    This is a very low buck fix and not even worth messing with the dirt bag that sold her the gun other than she shouldn't do any further transactions with him. A quick internet shopping trip to Midway USA or Brownell's and you can have a replacement bead in a few days.
     
  20. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Phil Kiner, who isn't a half bad shooter blacks out the beads when he gives clinics, saying there is no need for them ... I'm not sure if he feels the same way about with a novice shooter, but can't see why it would matter ... Maybe he will see this post and respond so we can get his views on this ... I say, you can't argue with success and Phil is one of the Top shooters on this planet ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
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