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No adjudication for mental cases results in this..

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by Brian in Oregon, Feb 21, 2013.

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  1. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I tried to explain to some of our less bright users that due process for mental adjudication must be followed before stripping someone of their Second Amendment rights. It cannot be done on a whim.

    Here's perfect evidence that without due process how rights are arbitrarily stripped.

    And notice it's not just for mental issues. The loss of a limb is now criteria to have Second Amendment rights taken away.

    But since they apparently cannot understand that the Second Amendment is a right, not a privilege, it's likely they think the Fifth Amendment is a privilege too.

    -------------------------------------

    ATTEVeterans are receiving letters from VA prohibiting
    the ownership or purchase of firearms

    Written By Constitutional Attorney Michael Connelly, J.D.

    How would you feel if you received a letter from the U.S. Government informing you that because of a physical or mental condition that the government says you have it is proposing to rule that you are incompetent to handle your own financial affairs? Suppose that letter also stated that the government is going to appoint a stranger to handle your affairs for you at your expense? That would certainly be scary enough but it gets worse.

    What if that letter also stated: “A determination of incompetency will prohibit you from purchasing, possessing, receiving, or transporting a firearm or ammunition. If you knowingly violate any of these prohibitions, you may be fined, imprisoned, or both pursuant to the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, Pub.L.No. 103-159, as implemented at 18, United States Code 924(a)(2).”?

    That makes is sound like something right from a documentary on a tyrannical dictatorship somewhere in the world. Yet, as I write this I have a copy of such a letter right in front of me. It is being sent by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs to hundreds, perhaps thousands, of America’s heroes. In my capacity as Executive Director of the United States Justice Foundation (USJF) I have been contacted by some of these veterans and the stories I am getting are appalling.

    The letter provides no specifics on the reasons for the proposed finding of incompetency; just that is based on a determination by someone in the VA. In every state in the United States no one can be declared incompetent to administer their own affairs without due process of law and that usually requires a judicial hearing with evidence being offered to prove to a judge that the person is indeed incompetent. This is a requirement of the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that states that no person shall “… be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law…”.

    Obviously, the Department of Veterans Affairs can’t be bothered by such impediments as the Constitution, particularly since they are clearly pushing to fulfill one of Obama’s main goals, the disarming of the American people. Janet Napolitano has already warned law enforcement that some of the most dangerous among us are America’s heroes, our veterans, and now according to this letter from the VA they can be prohibited from buying or even possessing a firearm because of a physical or mental disability.

    Think about it, the men and women who have laid their lives on the line to defend us and our Constitution are now having their own Constitutional rights denied. There are no clear criteria for the VA to declare a veteran incompetent. It can be the loss of a limb in combat, a head injury, a diagnosis of PTSD, or even a soldier just telling someone at the VA that he or she is depressed over the loss of a buddy in combat. In none of these situations has the person been found to be a danger to themselves or others. If that was the case than all of the Americans who have suffered from PTSD following the loss of a loved one or from being in a car accident would also have to be disqualified from owning firearms. It would also mean that everyone who has ever been depressed for any reason should be disarmed. In fact, many of the veterans being deprived of their rights have no idea why it is happening.

    The answer seems to be it is simply because they are veterans. At the USJF we intend to find the truth by filing a Freedom of Information Act request to the Department of Veterans Affairs to force them to disclose the criteria they are using to place veterans on the background check list that keeps them from exercising their Second Amendment rights. Then we will take whatever legal steps are necessary to protect our American warriors.

    The reality is that Obama will not get all of the gun control measures he wants through Congress, and they wouldn’t be enough for him anyway. He wants a totally disarmed America so there will be no resistance to his plans to rob us of our nation. That means we have to ask who will be next. If you are receiving a Social Security check will you get one of these letters? Will the government declare that you are incompetent because of your age and therefore banned from firearm ownership. It certainly fits in with the philosophy and plans of the Obama administration. It is also certain that our military veterans don’t deserve this and neither do any other Americans.

    -- Michael Connelly, J.D.

    Executive Director, United States Justice Foundation?

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    http://redflagnews.com/headlines/disarming-americas-heros-veterans-receiving-official-letters-prohibiting-them-from-purchasing-possessing-receiving-or-transporting-a-firearm-or-ammunition
     
  2. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    There are so many items wrong with that supposed experts opinion that it isnt even worth going over

    Brian- you are a paranoid nut case to print something like and endorse what it says without even doing the simplest check on the validity.

    I didnt know you are a veteran Brian

    This bs has beed dubuked for months

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  3. wayno

    wayno TS Member

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    gene, whether or not there is any objective truth to these ramblings makes no difference to brian. they are true for him, in his bizzaro world.

    nothing that any man born of woman says will change that world.
     
  4. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I see our resident liberal anti-gun shills have squeaked up. And have offered nothing to back up their claim.
     
  5. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    http://wtvr.com/2012/08/23/brandon-raub-judge-orders-release-of-detained-marine-veteran-freed/

    This vet was picked up as mentally incompetent threat when in fact was quite sane.

    He was INVOLUNTARILY COMMITTED, both at a local facility and then transferred to a VA hospital.

    Because he was INVOLUNTARILY COMMITTED, that means he cannot legally own firearms even though he was not adjudicated as being mentally defective. The VA furnishes the names of those who are INVOLUNTARILY COMMITTED to NICS.

    A judge ordered his release. Whether this cleared his name or not from being involuntarily committed is unknown. If it wasn't, this could be a NICS issue.

    THAT is the point of what I posted. That denial of Second Amendment rights needs to have proper due process and proper adjudication. the simple act of involuntarily committing someone should not be enough to strip rights. Because as shown above, you can be picked up on a whim if you say or write something that offends someone. (Ironically, if you voluntarily commit yourself, you do not lose your gun rights.)

    Please note carefully that I am NOT saying that mentally defective people should be allowed to own guns. My point is in rebuttal to those who feel that due process and adjudication is not necessary. It is absolutely necessary, and that vehicle must be in place and be used before rights can be stripped.
     
  6. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    Good point Brian!

    Anyone following the Mindy McCready case?
     
  7. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Here is prima facia evidence of the VA proposing to rate someone as incompetent to handle their VA benefit payments, and the VA notes that if they determine they are incompetent, they will not be allowed to own firearms.

    No adjudication. Just a determination from the VA.



    View attachment 196628



    View attachment 196629



    View attachment 196630
     
  8. wayno

    wayno TS Member

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    brian, it would appear to me that anyone who receives this letter is entitled to a hearing at which any relevant evidence may be marshalled by counsel of the "accused" person's choice. a decision is made, i take it, by one or more members of the commission before whom the person in question appears, with counsel.

    beyond that, anyone would be able to appeal that administrative decision to a court of law, at which time standard conditions of due process would attach.
     
  9. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Wayno, you overlook:

    Why was the letter sent in the first place? There have been complaints by vets who lost a limb that they improperly received a letter. Many vets feel that they received these letters without cause, that they are part of a fishing expedition.

    And, the letters were not sent via registered mail. That's important, because, since you read the letter, you should have noticed the part about "If you agree...". It's set up to automatically assume the person the letter was sent to automatically agrees to the VA incompetency determination if they do not respond. So... if they never got the letter, the VA interprets that as they agreed they were not competent. And what about vets who move, or have no permanent address?

    Further, vets are being forced to fight this fishing expedition at their own expense. The letter clearly states the government will not pay for their defense. Even the lowliest criminal in this nation gets free representation appointed to them by the government in a trial, but the most indigent vet does not for a hearing of this life changing magnitude.

    Sorry, this is NOT how rights should be revoked. I am not opposed to the mentally unbalanced having Second Amendment rights removed. BUT, there has to be a proper system based upon a proper adjudication in court. And the government needs to provide defense help for indigent vets. I am not willing to see their rights thrown under the bus by anti-gunners.
     
  10. wayno

    wayno TS Member

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    brian: i have been a defense lawyer for more than 40 years. would you be surprised to hear that damned near everyone i have ever represented claimed, in the initial stages of the process, that they had no idea what the indictment was talking about? and, of course, some of them were right. many were not.

    no court will rule against an individual who was not give personal notice of the accusation, or, in this case, the claim.

    i do firmly support your position that the v.a. should supply counsel at no cost. everything else seems to be necessarily provided by the v.a.

    once again, after the administrative process, all vets have access to the courts.

    you can be certain that i support, with all my heart, the right of all of us, to due process of law.
     
  11. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    wayno,

    What about the individual under a PFA or other restraining order issued without the knowledge of the subject party??

    Happens all the time and the poor person ends up locked up for something they knew nothing about, hence violating a law without proper notification.
     
  12. wayno

    wayno TS Member

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    hs: those are awful things. but they can be adjudicated. they are not permanet.

    and, i suppose you have noticed, this world is not completely fair.
     
  13. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    wayno throws the "attorney card" and HSLDS shoots him down.

    back peddle, back peddle.......

    wayno, why you even here? who are your trying to impress?
     
  14. wayno

    wayno TS Member

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    if that's being "shot down", there is damn little pain involved in the experience.

    it's "back pedal, back pedal", setterman.

    i am here because i am fascinated by the fantasy world that i have found. it's fun to interject truth into hysteria.

    i don't expect to impress anyone. no one listens to what i say. i still get a kick out of the process, though.

    and what are you here for, setterman? spelling lessons?
     
  15. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Uh, no, this is the reality world, wayno. It just looks like a fantasy world to you, who is coming from a fantasy world.

    And the irony of someone who cannot capitalize scolding someone else for spelling.
     
  16. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    peddle, pitiful, piddle, Close enough.
     
  17. wayno

    wayno TS Member

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  18. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    wayno,,,,,,you first state,

    "From: wayno
    Email:
    Date: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 - 11:36 PM ET
    Website Address:

    gene, whether or not there is any objective truth to these ramblings makes no difference to brian. they are true for him, in his bizzaro world.",,,,,,,,and now you are arguing they can just fight it in court,,,,,,why would they need to fight it in court if it is just Brian's "ramblings",,,,,,ask gene, he may know......
     
  19. wayno

    wayno TS Member

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    well, i don't think they will ever have to fight it in court. these things are just the ruffling of wings, so that the idiots can say, two years from now, "i sponsored a bill to do this, or that..."

    you do understand that this is the way politics goes, and has gone, for centuries, don't you?
     
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