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new target year?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by tomk2, May 4, 2008.

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  1. tomk2

    tomk2 Member

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    There would be no need for any change this year, as the rule change applies to the months after this years Grand.
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Yes, many shooters will be challenged next year and many clubs will suffer this Sept. and Oct. with the new target year. But, we did make the job of five ladies in the ATA office easier.

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    None of these replys have answered the question stated! So, for one who also does NOT know the answer, what is the target requirement for 2008 and 2009? Jake
     
  4. Marco Polo

    Marco Polo TS Member

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    This from the ATA website=----<br>
    A. GRAND AMERICAN QUALIFICATION<br>
    No participant shall be classified to shoot Handicap events at less
    than 25.0 yards unless he/she has a minimum of 1000 registered
    ATA Handicap targets in the current year. The 1000 Handicap targets
    must have been registered since September 1 of the previous year
    and not later than the day preceding the first regular day of the Grand
    American World Trapshooting Championships of the current year.
    However, participants who fail to meet Grand American Handicap
    qualification as described above shall have the choice of shooting
    penalty yardage as described above, or shooting targets only from
    their assigned yardage provided they waive and forfeit all rights to
    trophies, options, purses, added money or any other prize. Handicap
    target requirements are waived for Sr. Veterans, making them eligible
    for trophies and monies.<br>
    Shooters who do not have a total of 1000 16 yard targets in the current
    year will be advanced at least two (2) classes or more at the discretion
    of the Handicap Committee. Shooters without an established average
    shall be placed in class B or higher at the discretion of the Handicap
    Committee. The 1000 targets must have been registered since
    September 1 of the previous year and not later than the day preceding
    the first regular day of the Grand American World Trapshooting
    Championships of the current year.<br>
    Shooters who do not have a total of 1000 doubles targets in the current
    year will be advanced at least two (2) classes or more at the discretion
    of the Handicap Committee. Shooters without an established average
    shall be placed in class B or higher at the discretion of the Handicap
    Committee. The 1000 targets must have been registered since
    September 1 of the previous year and not later than the day preceding
    the first regular day of the Grand American World Trapshooting
    Championships of the current year.<br>
    It shall be the shooter’s responsibility to inform the Handicap Committee
    as to his or her target eligibility.<br>
    <br>
    TARGET YEAR
    The 2008 target year runs from September 1, 2007 thru October 31, 2008;
    after that the target year shall be November 1 thru October 31. Scores
    shot at any tournament ending after October 31, regardless of starting
    date, will be included in the following year’s averages.
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Marco Polo- You gave a good answer for the 2008 Grand. My guess is that the target requirement will be lowered for the 2009 Grand. But, if fewer targets are required for accurate classification in 2009, why would not fewer targets be required for accurate classification in 2008?

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. tomk2

    tomk2 Member

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    Pat -

    Your point is well taken. Be on the look out for the same number of targets, or possibly even a greater number of targets, but over the current and prior year instead of the current year only for the 2009 Grand. I suppose that one could even completely disassociate the target year and classification altogether, by making classification be "X targets within the last Y months." I would imagine that all sorts of mechanisms could be thought of, proposed, and argued about. And if a change is adopted, it will probaby hinder some, help some others, but make little difference to most.

    But for the 2008 Grand, no modifications are necessary because of the target year change.
     
  7. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    The requirements for the Grand and Zones should be:

    3000 Singles

    3000 Handicap

    2000 Doubles

    All personnel not meeting those requirements should be placed in Class AA for singles & doubles...27 yard line for handicap.

    Curt
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Why, Curt?

    Neil
     
  9. Marco Polo

    Marco Polo TS Member

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    From what I hear from the shooters in this area, shooting in September and October will be non-existant for those watching their money. Why piss away good money on targets that don't count. Lots of the LOCAL shooters don't drive to the far away shoots over the winter. This new target year won't effect he fat cat, motor home driving, Florida and Arizona chain shooters. Why waste several hundred $$$$$$$ shooting at targets in Sept. and Oct. that don't count for the 2009 target year. I shot 600 targets in each event this target year in September and October while the weather was nice and boy am I glad. This spring has been a typical old time spring.....Rain, snow and colder weather....bad for shooting targets. (What happened to global warming) In the northern states it's not easy to shoot good targets in March and April, let alone May. There are NO SHOOTS this weekend in my area due to Mothers Day. It will now be tough for some old and even many new ATA Shooters to get enough targets to shoot the Illinois State Shoot or even the Wisconsin shoot. <br>
     
  10. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    Curt - Why not make a rule that eliminates lower class and short yardage shooters. With you chain of thought the Grand should be able to be run on the west banks only. No need for the other 96. Or why not just eliminate new shooters to the sport.

    You type to thinking is one of the reasons this sport has been in decline. - Jim
     
  11. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Well I guess there must be something wrong with my thinking. Let me see Marco Polo says "There are NO SHOOTS this weekend in my area due to Mothers Day. It will now be tough for some old and even many new ATA Shooters to get enough targets to shoot the Illinois State Shoot or even the Wisconsin shoot." I hope you don't feel alone there are none here either.

    You complain that it is difficult to get enough targets to attend your own state shoot(Illinois) In your area I am looking at 5 states that boarder Illinois and 1 more including Illinois there are in the month of May alone 261 shoots available. In the 6 New England States which is where I am there are in the month of May 28 shoots available. AM I supposed to feel sorry for you or what. If I manage to make target requirements OK if not I shoot penalty or not at all just like you will have to do.

    SKYBOLT said "They said it was to help the girls in the office and also to help persons trying to make the all american teams and state teams.

    What percentage of shooters is that?? Sounds like were helping the few and screwing the many. At Michigans Fall Team shoot my buddys and I are only going to shoot the team event. Why shoot targets that don't count." Well SKYBOLT that is one way of seeing it. You could however think about supporting the clubs that put on the shoots in your area so that you and others like you will have a place to shoot.

    There is also another reason. The shooters that are trying to make the All American and State teams usually have to shoot twice the number of targets per year that the shooters that are only trying to make target requirements for the State and Grand. Interesting they are not here crying about the target year and target availability!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bob Lawless
     
  12. Jon Reitz

    Jon Reitz Well-Known Member

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    The most difficult thing for newer shooters is to get enough targets to avoid either penalty yardage or class penalties. We spend an awful lot of money traveling around to try to meet that criteria. Some (many) fall by the wayside as a result of that and leave disgusted. It appears that this change will make that situation even worse. JMO.
     
  13. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    The new target year starting November 1st will only effect target year 2009 and afterward, it has zero impact on target year 2008. Shooters who shoot where the program specifies that target minimums are based only on the current target year instead of current and prior target years should start lobbying the Shoot Management Committees NOW to get the programs changed for the 2009 and subsequent shoots.
     
  14. Jim Porter

    Jim Porter Well-Known Member

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    I get the red's every time I see a post like this one or the griping about Vandalia/Sparta. Here is the truth. The board does what it thinks is best for the membership---like politics success is 51%. I am a life member, they have my support. Unlike most I HAVE BEEN TO A MEETING AND VOTED MY WISHES---HAVE YOU?? The new rule will not be good for me. I work at night and live in a STATE with FOUR clubs and about 1000 registered shooters of which abour 1/5 or less actually shoot. It's hard to get even three people together to register targets. I get off at 5:30 and have to get to a club around 9:00 and shoot like a zombie. I LOVE Sparta--unlike most I've been there!! It's beautiful!! Rooms and travel is another thing but face it people it's not easy to find prime land inside a metro area with 10,000 motel rooms that will LET YOU SHOOT A GUN!!! You may not have noticed, there LOUD and alot of people don't like them!! I loved Vandalia, here were rooms and food and it was THREE HOURS FURTHER FOR ME TO GET THERE!! For those who just HATE Sparta and everybody who made the move happen, please tell me where you would have gone?? Anywhere--Anybody??
    Everybody who took shots at Sparta's attendance last year never note the record heat 100, 101, 102 degrees AND yes I did call Vandalia and it was just as hot there. For those who state loss of money because of having too much help tell me what you would have done at a new venue where no one had a clue how many would show up. How much hell would have been raised if there had been too little help? Help would have been short if there had not been some extras due to several having to leave with heat exhaustion.
    Grow up people!!! Our enemy is MONEY to PARTICIPATE not target requirements or location. For all I see most clubs are down in target numbers and attendance because people just don't have the money to spend on trap! I just hope we can weather the storm and hold what we HAVE. I suspect Sparta will be off more this year as will every State and Zone Shoot--It would be off in Vandalia too!!
    OK I,m through
    Signed
    Life Member In Miss who shoots and votes and thinks our leaders are OK even when I take it on the chin!!
     
  15. K80433SC

    K80433SC Member

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    I live in Pennsylvania, which also has a colder climate -- making October and November shooting a considerably less-than-desireable option. Our "spring" season is also very unpredictable, often making target requirements akin to a juggling act. The "new" target year is definitely WRONG for us here, but I have come to expect no less from the ATA.

    As with nearly every organization -- given enough time and influence by "wealthier" members, the little guy is soon left to stand at the wayside. How soon they forget who is REALLY "paying the freight".........

    Marco Polo made reference to the "fat cat, motorhome-driving, Florida & Arizona chain shooters" in his reply. While I have nothing but respect and admiration for those who have reached this plateau in their lives - and would NEVER refer to them in such terms - they tend to stick up for everything that ATA does, as it does not directly impact their shooting. I've seen it far too many times here on the message board.

    And to Neil...........NATURALLY you are supportive of the new target year. And the move to Sparta, and.........on & on. Come on ! As the current President, who would expect otherwise ? Are you actually going to disagree ? Highly doubtful.......

    As you have probably grown weary of hearing us "little folk" bitching, I have (also) grown numb to your insistance that all is well with the organization, and that policy is made with the best interest of ALL in mind. The WEST has always had more leverage in decision-making at headquarters.

    What I still fail to understand is why the ATA cannot alter their stance on the August renewal. A simpler solution would be to make the dues year concurrent with the calendar year. Instead -- they choose to make a few office staffers' jobs easier, while managing to pi$$ off several thousand cold climate shooters. Sounds like perfect logic to me............

    So what if you have guys shooting after December that let their dues expire. You just "catch" them at the first major spring tournaments where you have computer interface with dues information, and make then renew then -- or not shoot.

    I would encourage everyone with an opinion (pro OR con) to the recent shift in the target year to contact your representative state delegate. Make it known that you want your opinion heard at subsequent EB meetings. THEN -- let the majority decide....................
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    K80433SC- I would like to expand on two points you mentioned. You shoot in Penna. That state will have something like 250 new members join the ATA in 2009. They will not join in November, they will wait until their first opportunity to shoot (late April or early May, 2009). How many weeks will they have to meet target requirements for the PA State Shoot held in June?

    You also suggested that the ATA calender year begin on January 1 along with the new calendar year. This has been suggested before and the idea was met with strong disapproval from the ATA office workers. Do you have any idea what such a change would do to the Christmas Holidays for these workers? How could the new cards get out in time when the office is closed from just before Christmas until after the first of the year?

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Pat it is much easier for people like K80433SC to complain. Than it is to understand that the the office staff(which from information I can gather is in the single numbers)the one that tabulate and enter the weekly results for 30,000 shooters.

    They have to face Grand numbers and membership renewal information and year end average tabulation for yearly averages for average cards. He and others like him seem to feel that these people are not entitled to any relief and help at crunch time not when he has to pay a whole $20 dollars a year for membership.

    Pat I don't mean to sound like I am taking it out on you that is not the case. I just wish that for once just one of these complainers that don't ever seem to get involved in what it take to accomplish these tasks. Wouldn't it be nice if they stopped to think before they made these type of statements "they choose to make a few office staffers' jobs easier, while managing to pi$$ off several thousand cold climate shooters." Don't you mean several thousand cold climate shooters who want what they want when they want it with no exceptions?
    Are they the same cold climate shooters that complain every fall when they don't have their average card at the snap of their fingers? Please explain to us what cold weather has to do with getting required targets?

    I guess I just can't be that selfish that is probably whats wrong me!!!!!!!!!!

    Bob Lawless
     
  18. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Ah...good to see that the downriggers worked......(just kidding about the high target requirements, so those that got their pantyhose in bunch....my apologies).

    Somebody...please...anybody....tell me (and the rest of the TS'rs) what the big deal is about the target year date changing? An answer in a semi-intelligent manner will be appreciated.

    Curt
     
  19. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Curt, with the Grand being in August, and the target year beginning November 1, targets shot during September and October do not count towards minimum target requirements for 2009. Consequently, that removes the "meeting target minimums" motivation to attend shoots after the Grand. Because the weather can turn pretty nasty in November through March in a lot of the country, many shooters will only have April and May and part of June to meet their target minimums prior to their state shoots and also for the Grand.

    One fix for this is to institute target minimums over two years but, as Pat pointed out, that doesn't help the new shooters who will start competing in the spring shoots next year. Making new shooters compete in penalty classifications is not a very smart marketing move.

    While moving the Grand to late September would provide more time to meet its target minimums that would not resolve the problem of the state shoots unless the state shoots moved along with it from June dates to July dates.

    Probably the best solution is for clubs to throw some marathon type events in the spring months so that new shooters can meet the target minimums. This would also help the clubs by putting more targets in the air.

    Our club is structuring both our May and June shoots so that people will have the opportunity to shoot extra targets at discounted rates prior to our California State shoot.
     
  20. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Paul in Mn you said " It doesn't matter how many shoots are in a month, most of us have other obligations: weddings, graduations, family vacations,.....get the idea?" well with all of that being said please explain why complaining about it is going to change any of what you refer to.

    It would seem to me that if this is the way it is there is no point of complaining or discussing it here a State Association meeting with the intention of getting the Target requirements changed to include 2 years is the best course of action.

    Pat and others have made mention of the fact that new shooters this year will have difficulty making target requirements. I say no more than any other year that a new shooter starts in the spring. If the State shoot in a shooters State is in June than any year that a new shooter starts in the Spring(April, 1 for example)will afford the same opportunities to accumulate the required targets in any year. Or maybe that is the ATA fault as well.

    Bob Lawless
     
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