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New Rules?? Target speed!

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by DC, Aug 22, 2007.

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  1. DC

    DC TS Member

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    Where is speed set with radar gun? 16 yard, lip of trap, 27 yard, how high is gun held??? Why no 10 yard height at Grand??? Protractor degree iffy! Not all houses the same degree changes with wind and trap placement! Thanks for the info. Need to make target setting clear for all clubs.
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    High power gun, from the 16-yard line. Just hold it out.

    Low power gun, from roof-height, looking straight out. Don't hold or point it higher.

    Doubles, right bird.

    Never on the traphouse.

    Trap placement is consistent at the Grand, traps were set to an angle and adjusted to meet conditions and location.
     
  3. Bvr Tail

    Bvr Tail Well-Known Member

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    Jerry B

    I downloaded one from www.claytargettesting.com

    Neil said to see "Study 1" on this site.

    Hope this helps

    Danny
     
  4. The Rock

    The Rock Active Member

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    Well that kills registered at the club in the future. I can set them the way they have been set for 100 years but a radar gun purchased by our club get real.

    Rock

    Jim
     
  5. schockstrap

    schockstrap Active Member

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    Rock,

    Just use your bionic eye like Steve Austin :). I would guess the rule chage is just adding language to the current "Flights and Angles" section to formally acknowledge the use of target speed as an indication of the distance that the target will fly (rather than just stating 49-51 yards as it does now. No need to panic.

    --Dan
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Try this link.

    Neil
     
  7. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    Neil, or should I say Mr. President, Bob Schultz has a bracket that mounts to the plate of a pat trap and the radar gun mounts to that. I believe it is call a pat pal. Measures the target speed right off the plate. What is your take on this method of measuring target speed? Also what are suggested angles to set the plate for singles and doubles. I was told 21 for singles and 24 for doubles. Thanks for the reply, Jake Jacobs
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The Bob Schultz bracket will be in the addendum as well, Jake. Because it is reading the target straight from the back instead of at an angle, the best initial bet for the speed will be the reciprocal of the cosine of 20 degrees times 42 MPH or about 45 MPH. I'll check with Bob of course, but I have all that data here based on "live" tests and there may be some small correction to the calculated standard. When it comes right down to it, I'll replicate my test and put that in the rule.

    Neil
     
  9. grunt

    grunt TS Supporters TS Supporters

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  10. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    In my experience the same target that shows 45 mph with a radar gun mounted on a "Pat-Pal" will show 42 mph measured with the radar gun held level at the rear of the traphouse roof.

    John C. Saubak
     
  11. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Neil, in your other thread about rules changes you mentioned that target setting will be based on target speed and distance. What about height.

    I see the crossbar/speedgun being the best way to set targets in any weather.
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, OC. I'm glad you chimed in. And that's the way it should work, which is a definite plus, don't you think? But I know you are a lot like me:

    "Listen; agree, provisionally,

    but go home and test it anyway."

    OK, when you did your soft-shot test I disagreed, provisionally, and went home and tested and found you were right - so now I'm gong to listen better.

    Neil
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Barry, I am staying away from angle vs. crossbar because I don't think the height thing is nearly as reproducible across traps and/or clubs as is speed. Though I've seen it work, I've seen it fail where it _should_ have worked or that's the way it seemed to me.

    Confidentially, if the person setting the birds "knows what a good target looks like" I doubt I could write a rule which would improve on what he/she would set.

    Neil
     
  14. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    If you use speed as a constant, how can distance be incorporated?

    Also, If you replace "angle" (which I believe you to mean a set point marked on the machine) for the traditional crossbar, how do you plan to resolve large differences in wind speed and direction?

    I think the use of the Sgun in combination with the traditional crossbar is the most accurate way to begin target setting in all circumstances and the machine mounted angle finder is only an attempt to make target setting easier regardless it's accuracy.

    The TBar is not rocket science.

    Respectively, Barry
     
  15. backfenceata

    backfenceata TS Member

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    A vote for speed gun AND THE T-BAR (height) no distance stakes. Kirk
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Barry, your first comment:

    "If you use speed as a constant, how can distance be incorporated?"

    is aimed exactly right. You can't. You have to use one or the other. In another thread I wrote:

    "If you are dissatisfied with 42 MPH, then use distance. Both are in the book, now.

    But _don't_ just decide "42 MPH is more than 51 yards, so I'll use less speed." That's not the deal. If you buy into speed, then you turn your back on distance, and can't use it in an argument anymore. Once again, it's speed _or_ distance, NOT speed as "corrected" by distance. And it's 42."

    And that covers your question.

    But the rest confuses me. Who said anything about angle vs t-bar? The ATA trusts clubs to use what works best for them (and won't change its mind about that at present.)

    Neil
     
  17. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    Unless my physics has gone astray, isn't target speed a function of distance? Set the correct distance and the target speed will be within X, and vice versa, set the target speed at X then the target will fly X yds? (granted that the 50 yd. stake is correctly placed).

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    JB, target speed is a function of distance.

    But speed can be read several ways. That's why there will be a "How to" in the rulebook.

    Different brands of target may fly different distances when launched at the same speed.

    ...so you have to use one or the other. And you can't "correct" speed with an observed distance.

    Neil
     
  19. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    We have used either a radar gun or crono for setting targets for years. We always set speed (we also have all fields staked properly) before setting height. After speed is determined we use a bar for height. Using eye for height determination is difficult because the background will change slightly from field to field. - Jim
     
  20. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Sine the Dec '06 Why Not make Radar Setting Compulsory brouhaha I have been paying very, very close attention to target setting. I have gone early to several State shoots to watch the targets being setup and talk to the setters. I've done the same at other big shoots. I've done a fair amount of experimenting at our own club with still air setting, vs. radar, vs chrono. I've found the following:

    There is more than one way to skin a cat. Any method will work as long as you_do_it_the_same_way_each_and_every_time_you_do_it.

    Concerning radar guns:

    High power guns work great from the 16 yard line, especially if they are aimed parallel to the ground, in-line with the target trajectory. That means from post 3 for singles and caps, and in between post 1 and 2 for doubles.

    Low power guns are not as consistent. You have to be much more careful about placement if you want good data. Placing the gun at the rear of the trap house is not consistent. I was cautioned about this by the ATA State Delegate I bought mine from. He wondered about consistency, and said he had better results from the middle of the house. IMO with any low power radar gun, the best placement is on the center of the roof (or closer to the front), level, with the bottom of the gun above the front lip of the trap house. In the thread I mentioned above, Jim101 shows the perfect mounting device and location. I use a mini tripod to do the same thing. I like Tbonz411 suggestion of the Pat Pal arm, as well, because like the chrono, it requires one less person for setup.

    One thing I haven't figured out yet (and it may be what Neil was referring to in his first post with "never on the trap house"). If I relocate the gun to the left side of the house and aim it along the right target trajectory, level, I get too high and inconsistent readings. To get a consistent 39MPH I have to aim the gun at where the right target will be 10 yards out.

    BTW, identical 3600 guns will read differently on the same set up. Some will read 42 for a singles target, and others will read 43. I'm not completely sure what Neil means about using distance OR speed, not "corrected" by. It sure seems to me that some "calibration" is necessary. A 42MPH reading on my gun throws a 10' high 50' target in still air. Judging by how many times I've heard 43MPH stated as the correct speed I 'd say low reading guns like mine are a minority. Even so, it illustrates the point. You cannot take anything as gospel. You have to check and calibrate before you can trust the results.
     
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