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New rule on speed of targets, what does it mean?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by 1brucem, Apr 29, 2010.

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  1. 1brucem

    1brucem TS Member

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    At a recent shoot, the targets were set to the steak into a 20 mph or stronger head wind. When confronted with the fact that setting to the steak was in dead calm wind, the state delegate stated that the new rule was to set to a minimum speed of 41.5 mph and that as these targets were going so much faster they were legal. Any comments as to Is this the intent of the new rule? would be appreciated.
    Bruce
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You can set by speed or distance. If speed is used, for singles and handicap, gun in the usual place, 42 MPH is the minimum. I repeat, minimum.

    That is the intent of the rule. And that's what it says, too.

    I heard they were not in fact, set to stake, but rather a couple/three yards short. Without a radar gun (that day) no one knows how much faster they were, if indeed they were faster at all.

    Contrary to what I read, a head wind does not shorten target flight very much, and no, not everyone "knows it." A tailwind is _much_ more effective at shortening a target.

    Neil
     
  3. cubancigar2000

    cubancigar2000 Well-Known Member

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    I agree totally Neil. I set our targets at melba and you are spot on. The headwind is not to worry, the tailwind will play hell with the targets
     
  4. 1brucem

    1brucem TS Member

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    Neil, Thanks for the response, but I'm not sure that we are discussing the same event. Anyway, the targets were not set with a speed gun, but as they clearly were way faster than 42 mph the argument was that they are legal because of the new rule. Is that what the ATA intended? Thanks Bruce
     
  5. Scootermac50

    Scootermac50 Active Member

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    The engineer in you Bruce?
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    As Neil clearly stated, targets may be set to 50 yards in still air or by speed. Nobody knows what the distance should be when the air is blowing but is should not be 50 yards. A head wind will blow targets up and a little shorter. A tail wind will move targets down and a lot shorter.

    Ross- I have never seen what you described. I suppose it is possible but I cannot imagine shooting in a wind so strong that it would blow targets back so far that they land just past the height setting bar. I know that I could not stand up in such a strong wind and you certainly could not set in a scorers chair in such a wind.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. trapster100

    trapster100 Member

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    Pat,
    I see you've never shot in Nova Scotia! :)
     
  8. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Or the old LORDSHIP run by Remington. Years ago witnessed targets from our house landing in and behind the house on the adjoining field. If I remember correctly some of the options paid in the low 20's on some fields. I think the ATA has done the right thing in using radar guns making for much better consistency from field to field. Shoot often while we can, Bob
     
  9. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    I don't think Neil or Pat shoot at tough targets, and they do not shoot on windy days to PROTECT AVERAGES.

    I totally agree w/Ross on his statement.

    I have seen this many times in my 40+years shooting TRAP.

    Neil and Pat must live and shoot in another WORLD.

    I cannot believe Neil made such a statement that a head wind affects the targets very little, I thought he and Pat were intelligent.

    An action is in direct relationship to reaction.

    Driving in a head wind makes the vehicle use more gas to maintain the same speed, as you must depress the accelerator more to maintain the desired speed.

    I have seen a head wind raise targets 50-60 feet in the air and lad close in front of the traphouse.

    Intelligent minds are in doubt now.

    I aqm a witness first hand to ROSS's statement.

    Neil where is the Graph and Chart on WINDSPEED and it's effect on targets?

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  10. porky

    porky TS Member

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    I have to agree with Doc Logngshot. Winds affect both birds and shot. Maybe not as much as the excuses we give, but I have found that unless the people who use the radar guns reset them everyday, they are not correct. Even the police have to reset the radar guns each time they use them.
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Gary- I shoot only in good conditions to protect my average? How about the singles event I won last Fall with a 78 (heavy rain and wind). That took care of my average for this year. How about the Southern Grand-- you should have been there. Wind was strong and I shot every target. I spent much of my life in Western Oklahoma. If you live in that area, you know about wind and storms.

    I do not have a good grasp of fluid dynamics but I did make some very rough estimates. With the target leaving the house at 43 MPH and getting blown back to the front of the traphouse would require a wind approaching at least 55 MPH. That is not too far from hurricane force and standing up in such a wind would be very difficult. Keeping your eyes open against such a wind would not be possible. Could you be exaggerating just a little bit?

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary, of course I was referring to the 20 MPH headwind Bruce cited in the opening post. Do you have a radar gun? That's the way to set targets.

    When the wind gets very high, "target-setting" another story - but that's not the kind of target setting the rulebook intends to deal with. In the latter case, the high-wind case - I think the ATA would decide anything goes - just try to set something hitable, if possible, and run with it. I've seen targets at the GLG disappear out of sight, straight up (people will remember it, the late-week doubles event four or five years ago) and who knows where they landed. I shot them.

    Neil
     
  13. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    Hmmmm........does the rulebook stop at 20 mph? The shoot doesn't.......
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary, I missed the second part of your post, the wind-speed chart. There isn't one.

    I had once planned on such a program, but found it can't be done.

    1. First problem is determining wind speed. The weather service uses 20 feet off the ground, as I remember, so you need a remote sensor on a pole and since no club would have one how were they to use the chart?

    2. You need a pencil and paper. Write down everyone's estimate of wind speed. Divide by two. That's probably pretty close to how fast it's actually blowing; people vastly over-estimate wind speed (too.)

    3. So you settle on using a Kestrel speed-meter on the ground, though you know is not measuring what the bird sees. You take the data for three or four clubs and nothing is consistent. A little dip in front of the house can change everything, as can a difference in wind-direction, bird-setting-height, and so on.

    What you do find is that a moderate headwind, generally, shortens a bird some, but not a lot. The same tail wind will cause a bird to fall far shorter.

    The variable is (I think) changes in the angle of attack of the bird. In a no-wind condition, the angle of attack is zero. In wind it changes. And the angle of attack is a big variable in how much lift the bird gets. And lift is what a claybird uses to get distance.

    Neil

    (edit later) By the way, Gary you wrote

    "I don't think Neil or Pat shoot at tough targets, and they do not shoot on windy days to PROTECT AVERAGES."

    when in fact you have no idea at all where I shoot or under what conditions. It's typical of the fact that you make stuff up without regard to the truth of it. For example, in the last three target years you have registered only 2450 birds total, while my sum is 46,550. How can I be protecting an average with target-numbers like that? How can you think you aren't?

    Neil
     
  15. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I was going to mention some of the fierce head winds at the old Mint GC in Las Vegas blowing out of the north but no one would believe them. Maybe Leo H. or others will tell how some targets would land on the 22-24 yard line?

    Tailwinds out of the south will affect the targets as mentioned above. Diving and short unless the usual happens which is raise them. A 43 mph target once raised in a hard blowing tailwind will exceed the 50 yard mark easily. It's tough to please everyone once Mother Nature gets in the game.

    Hap
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    No, John, I just used 20 MPH because Bruce did. You can set with a gun if you want, but there will, eventually, be a wind-speed where you just might have to put it aside for a while and use your instincts.

    What do you do, for example, when your Pat-Trap is set at its lowest click and the birds are still way too high? The answer: you just do your best. If it requires more spring or less, don't expect the ATA to be looking from Vandalia and telling you what to do next; that's why you are a target setter. You will do what experience tell you is the right thing and that's shoot management's job - to support the people it thinks can do the work right, in general.

    Neil
     
  17. TrapDoggie

    TrapDoggie TS Member

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    "A little dip in front of the house can change everything..." Neil

    That little dips*!t in front of the house must be the demon that keeps tossing all those hard rights at me... If you see him, please administer 1 1/8 oz of rock salt to his backside for me! Thanks.
     
  18. porky

    porky TS Member

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    I think that technology can get in the way of simple things. Wind is almost always a factor in regions of the US. I think that the 10 yard stake for height and 50 yard stake for distance works the best for the majority of shooters. If the birds are regulated by those tools, the shooters will be satisfied. Maybe the "accurate" radar gun is practical at the large shoots,and that is just a guess, but at the other ones people prefer the KSS method.
     
  19. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    I agree with you Neil, I was just yanking your chain.....lol
     
  20. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Pat then you know from exp. that winds affect targets, that is why I responded w/my post. The or stronger head winds, I will call them gusts just to be safe.

    Head winds affect targets do you agree?

    Hap has shot in our windy conditions here in Ohio just as in other states and they affect targets, all agreed? OK

    Just my point, no offense Pat.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
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