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New Classes for ATA

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by phirel, May 19, 2008.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I assume you are talking about special category classes. Shooters in these special categories would also have to be classified in an established class (AA,A,B,C,D) and might also qualify for other special categories. One shooter might be classed as B, One Time Event, Junior making him eligible for three trophies. Shoot offs could get complicated. At a typical state shoot, about 15 trophies are required for each special category. By adding three more, the club would have to purchase around 45 additional trophies.

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    Rev ... great ideas and thoughts but with the current mentality of them all it will never happen unless it gets complicated to the point of absurdity and then and only then would they think it to be a good idea and implement it into existence.

    This is a reason why there are so many Friday night shooters at so many local clubs and ranges who will shoot fun shoots and club leagues but will never join or shoot any registered ATA events. It is more fun to shoot and have fun than to, well you know.

    Great ideas but they will never happen.
     
  3. R.Kipling

    R.Kipling Well-Known Member

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    Sporting Clays range's have had something similar for a decade, or more, it's called Hunter Class. I say range's, because it's not an NSCA sanctioned class. It is voluntary for the range owners, and it generally adds about +/-20% to the participation of SC shoots that have it. Only the major's (state and national shoots) restrict Hunter Class (normally).

    There is some contention regarding the class, but overall it is a benefit to the range owners. Typically, Hunter Class isn't included in money or trophy awards, but it can be, by owner decision. Most often, Lewis Class is about the only option.

    It is a very misunderstood class, within the NSCA shooter ranks. Personally, I like it because it brings in new blood, and it helps range profits. The ability to test the waters is important to our sport. I believe that Skeet tried some form of introductory membership? I can't remember if the ATA has or not? The Big-50 has kept a lot of older shooters in the game, and was a good idea. I wish more ranges, and people would participate in them.

    Personally, I think being able to run Big-50's on weekends, might also be effective. I'm in favor of a Sportsmen Class run like the the Hunter Class. Open up the sport and we might just see some gravitation toward the ATA. If not, then the ranges win, and that's just as important as any exclusive club.

    IMHO,
    Kip
     
  4. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    At the Indiana State shoot this year, we are trying out two new "categories" that we stole from the Great State of Minnesota. For the Singles Class Championship and the Singles Championship we will be offering a Novice and Lady II catergoty. The Novice category will be for anyone with less than 1000 total lifetime targets. The Lady II class will be for any Lady shooter classified in C or D class for those two events. These shooters will compete for their own Champion and Runner Up trophy.

    I believe a Hunter class would merit some consideration and I will make sure that the BOD takes it under advisement, depending on what kind of response we would get about the two new categories mentioned above. As for the other two suggestions Rev had had -- a family only or event only classification -- I don't see how that could be implemented without a major paperwork nightmare. We have some constraints when running a shoot of this size to what we can/cannot do without creating a massive amount of work for the directors -- mainly, just trying to keep track of where all these guys are at. Any easy ideas on how to decrease the paperwork nightmare that would go along with thos two categories?

    John Voliva
     
  5. GrubbyJack

    GrubbyJack Member

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    Nice idea Rev….to bad it will fall on deaf ears, if they (ATA) didn’t think of it, it must not be any good…most big organization have the attitude that if “WE” didn’t think of it, we don’t need it…”they” will come up with more reasons not to, than ideas on how it might work....flame away…...Gubby…
     
  6. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Novice Class at a state shoot? I think California had a one last year and the guy won the Singles Championship with 200 + 175 straight.
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Grubby- You must belong to a different ATA than I belong to.

    Squibb- If these suggested categories would not have any trophies the shooters could win, could a new shooter have his choice between entering a shoot as a "One Time" and win nothing or entering as class B and have a chance at winning something?

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Could you clarify this a little more please you said "Try this on for size. 1. A "Sportman Class" for shooters who shoot less than the state minimum." are you proposing this for State Shoots if so you will have a problem with it. If not why mention the state minimum?

    As far as local club use is concerned "We might pick up some Friday night games shooters who would come along for their class, especially if the event can be entered at their local club." the way I read the rule it can be done now. ATA rulebook Section V SINGLES AND DOUBLES EVENTS Paragraph C Sub Paragraph 4 "If Shoot Management desires to use different classification it may do
    so by printing the modified classification in the program of the shoot." So why are you proposing a new class?

    This part of your proposed classes is not clear to me. I don't however speak for everyone.

    Mr Newbius you said "great ideas and thoughts but with the current mentality of them all it will never happen unless it gets complicated to the point of absurdity and then and only then would they think it to be a good idea and implement it into existence." This is really different for you. Once in a former life on TS.com you said "I stopped reading your post as soon as I read "suggested" for that is the entire problem of the "ATA". All they really are is a organization that makes suggestions as to how clubs should run there shoots."

    Quite a turn around for you at one time the rule were only suggestions now you want to make suggestions the rules or are you just trolling, badly I might add?

    Bob Lawless
     
  9. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    Bob -- If the Sportsman or Hunter class is a compltely seperate "category" from the rest of the shoot (at the state level), I don't see a huge problem with it. Working with Bob Stuart, we have them just fill out a little card with their name and ATA number declaring they want to be in this class. They would then be ineligible for all other trophies, added money, or options (with maybe the exception of a lewis, but that might get a little complicated). Bob can then take those ATA numbers, imput them in and generate a report just for those shooters. We then award them the trophy or money ($1-2 per entry?) to whomever is high in the class. It would be, in reality, pretty simple. I espcially like not buying another trophy -- cause you never know how many people would show up to shoot that event. A computer generated certificate would be good (no $$) and giving back part of the entry that would have been used for a trophy anyway is a win-win on both sides.

    I think that idea would have some legs. The other two ideas, I just don't see how it would be feasible without a crap load of paperwork. Maybe I am just not seeing the forest for the trees.

    John
     
  10. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    Ya know ... at the state level I honestly dont think your going to get very many at all and to be totally honest I dont think at any registered shoot you will get very many at all either.

    With the cost and expenses of shooting and travel on the rise most shooters (and we have all already seen the attendance numbers at recent shoots) will stay home and shoot there own local home town club/ranges and shoot there own range/clubs fun shoot events instead of traveling and all to some event where they wont have enough targets and, well, it all would be nice but it is all a mute point thinking about more classes of shooters.
     
  11. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    Sound too much like when my kid played Little League and EVERYONE got a trophy, win or lose
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    John I understand that everyone thinks that this would be easy to do. What I want to know is what are the requirements for the category? As an example the ladies category I think is obvious but for those that are mentally challenged, you must be female.

    All of the others have age requirements. So what will be the requirements for Sportsman or Hunter class "A "Sportman Class" for shooters who shoot less than the state minimum." sure doesn't sound like you would have to do anything. What the he!! go to the state shoot join the ATA that day and shoot the Sportsman/Hunter class.

    Case scenario Jack Sprat is a boarder line AA shooter he has a lot of home projects so he is not going to shoot this year Gas is high Ammo and Lead are high Na he is going to stay home all year and when the State Shoot comes around he will go to that and shoot the Sportsman/Hunter class why not don't need any targets there are no requirements so he can do that and save a bundle. Great idea he is glad that they put this in. Ya he will let everyone else spend their money to get all those targets. You know the ones that don't fit the other categories.

    Why is it everyone that has an idea only has half an idea.

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you just hold a family picnic and give everyone an attendance certificate.

    Take the real meaning out of competition, work and effort to better oneself.

    Be a true socialist, bring the top down and the bottom up.

    How come the ones with all these solutions don't even shoot these shoots.

    Another new class "mail in your entry class". As long as you have an acceptable excuse, no excuse not accepted, you can mail in your entry with your score that you wanted to shoot and you will recieve your trophy in the return mail. Look at all the savings.

    Get Obama for ATA president and you will have all that you wish for.

    Don
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    rev you said "I just want to shoot two registered events at my local club. I would like to shoot the spring silver shoot and the fall tippy valley shoot."

    Are you sure you didn't leave something out. Because as I see what you are saying there is no reason why you can't do that now. Unless maybe they have target minimums(penalty class) that causes you to shoot a different class/yardage. You would like to create a class that would let you shoot by circumventing the target requirements. Even if that is not fair to everyone else.

    You also said " I would have to pay for the entire year, shoot against ones who have the money and resources to practice year-'round, and compete against those who have the time to travel and see a boatload of targets. I'm glad I asked; I see what I'm up against. I'm asking trying to entice new shooters to "give it a try," in hopes the eventually might move up to the regular ata programs and events."

    I am sorry but I don't this as "Trying to entice new shooter" I see this as simple trying to make it easier for rev to get what he wants with out having to put in the required time that everyone else has to put in. I am not angry either but I don't see a need for such a class. After all you and many more like you can shoot 100 or 10,000 ATA targets every year, any year. I believe that what you should be saying is "As it stands now, because of the above considerations, I have let my ata membership lapse and probably will not renew, unless their are more options offered." options that allow me to compete for the money with out the targets. "Yes, in their class they could win money."

    The way it is right now if there is no penalty class in place in the shoot you and anyone else can shoot 100 targets a year and "Yes, in their class they could win money." Just out of curiosity rev how old are you? You said you had been shooting for 50 years because most states and major shoots don't have penalty for Sr. Vets.

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    rev- Your experience should have demonstrated to you that we have never had large numbers of young shooters. If you travel around a bit, you will see that we do have a lot of new members each year in the 35-45 age range. Our basic problem is figuring out how to retain these members for more than 1-2 years. You could help with some suggestions on retention. You have elected to drop out of the ATA. What would it require to get you active again?

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    rev you say "I just remember how it was to establish a young family and also try to keep up with outside activities, such as trapshooting. Do we have tons of younger shooters coming into ata? How can we make it easier for them?" You know when I read all that you have to say something smacks me in the face and says Bull@#(%. This was a quote from your last post.

    This is a quote from the post wed May 21, 2008 7:55 AM "I just want to shoot two registered events at my local club. I would like to shoot the spring silver shoot and the fall tippy valley shoot. I have no desire to travel, spend gobs of money nor "better" myself. Please note; my suggestions limited these classes to two entries per year. I'm not trying to overthrow the ata, America, or every known democracy in the world. No, everyone would not get a winner certificate, only those who won. Yes, in their class they could win money." So which is it you are interested in helping new shooters or helping Squibb? Because as I read this "I just want to shoot two registered events at my local club." means you have motives that are a little closer to home than helping new shooters or should I say younger shooters.

    I never said you were "I guess I'm just a conniving mean kinda guy." you did. another thing you said "I really haven't in a long time tried to circumvent any rules." maybe you didn't set out to circumvent the rules but you will have to admit that "A "Sportman Class" for shooters who shoot less than the state minimum." sure would do just that. After all if everyone decided to shoot the Sportsman Class there would be no one in the regular classes now would there. If that happened there would be no need for target minimums at all. As a matter of fact there would be no need for another class at all.

    I have made comments that raise questions about what and who this class would serve and you have addressed none of these points as far as I am concerned the it is a dead issue.

    Bob Lawless
     
  17. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    If you don,t feel like putting in the time and money don,t play . I don,t like the idea of giving you a prize just because you came once .
     
  18. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    There is a useful point to consider that is partially hidden in of several posts on this thread. We have shooters with different degrees of commitment to shooting trap. The most committed shooters become leaders at the local, state and national level. That is both logical and wise. But, at times, it can leave out the desires many others who have not made trapshooting a major part of their life.

    One can easily argue the point that shooting programs should be set up to accommodate the desires of the shooters who shoot the most. They put the most into the sport. But, by doing this, we may not develop shoot programs that are attractive to new and marginally committed shooters. Programs that attract all types of shooters requires some innovation.

    Pat Ireland
     
  19. FPBristol

    FPBristol TS Member

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    I have read and reread this entire post and it seems to me that a great deal of energy is being spent on discrediting a suggestion that was made in good faith. Lets assume for an instant that this is not about someone wanting to win something. What if it is in fact an attempt to start a dialogue that will atract more shooters to trapshooting and ultimately the ATA. Within guidelines a novice or sportsman event at local shoots in conjunction with ATA shoots could possibly attract new shooters who might just want to "give it a try". I have been running small shots at our club for years and as hard as we try we cannot get most casual shooters to return for a second attempt when they do try and shoot a whopping 80 in class D and are beaten by an experienced not so good shooter with a 90. Call it what you may, but I can see some benefit in the ATA sanctioning events, within the ATA framework, at local clubs that would permit a limited participation in our sport. ATA records would not have to even be kept. Local shoot officials could monitor for impropriety and recognition could be a certificate with no real value except to the winners. In a nutshell, why can't we explore why an idea to benefit our sport could be made to work instead of why it cannot. It takes more talent to create than critique. Within Pat Irelands last post is exactly what I would expect a true leader in our sport to say and I congratulate him. It is really our loss that he is no longer a delegate. See, another good idea might be a few delegates at large. If Virginia no longer wants Pat, we could elect him as Atlantic Coast Conference Delegate to the ATA.
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Comparing the people drawn into trying our sport today is much different than in the past. In yesteryears, hunters and bird shooters made up a major part of that group. It seems to me those in the past had more interest in shooting competition than those today? Might that be one of the reasons of the lower retention rates and more drop-outs?

    If the above is true and I feel it is, retaining more new members call for different incentives. It's fairly evident the current draw isn't working as it did in past years so we have to find out why. Unless that's addressed from the top down, nothing can or will change.

    One more point, todays newbie is lumped into our midst with the older B,C and D shooters from yesterdays dedicated, competition loving shooters and classed accordingly. My money says the old shooters will totally dominate such a new shooter regardless of class! Not in every instance but over-all. We need to encourage newbies to stay in with an apprentice or probationary term. One that new shooters pay their own way for trophy's to be won during that period. What could we lose with such a program? Our new member loss is alarming and headed downhill already. I don't like change either but it's now time for some positive change. Hap
     
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