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New Class needed for Special Category Rule

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by mike31z, Aug 17, 2010.

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  1. mike31z

    mike31z Member

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    A new class is needed if the recent Special Category rule is going to be kept on the books. The letter assigned to this new class should be “X”.
    The reason for this new class for the Special Category shooters is to reduce the confusion during end of shoot scoring consolidation and it allows all shooter who view individual scores that are posted during the shoot to show which option the Special Category shooter chose at the beginning of the Tournament.
    The current computer scoring software requires that Class designation be entered for all shooters this is the reason I suggested an “X”.
     
  2. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Mike -

    I think you might be misunderstanding the new category rule. A person who declares a category can still win a class trophy. Let's say a Sr. Vet is in Class C and shoots a 95. If the high Sr. Vet score is 95 then he has to take the Sr. Vet trophy. However, if the high Sr. Vet score is 99 and the 95 is high in Class C then he gets the Class C trophy. The new rule only prohibits taking a class trohpy if you qualify for your category. At least that's the way I understand it.

    Scott
     
  3. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Mike: I'm not sure I follow you either. If a shooter has declared Category at a shoot, my understanding is that the "Vet" etc. category indicators on the printed scoresheet reflect that shooter's declaration, not whether he/she simply qualifies for a category. If you are looking at the event scores and a shooter you are concerned about has "VET" showing, to me that means he has declared as a Vet for that shoot.

    Is my understanding wrong?
     
  4. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    if the high Sr. Vet score is 99 and the 95 is high in Class C then he gets the Class C trophy.

    I don't think so. I think it is Champion or Vet once a declaration has been made. But, I may be wrong. JRM
     
  5. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    And, JRM, in fact, you are wrong.

    Section X, para D, items 4 and 5:

    "4. Any shooter who has declared a special category at the time of
    classification and whose score qualifies for any trophy in his/her declared
    category, will compete for the category trophy and not for place, class
    or yardage group.

    5. Any special category shooter whose score does not qualify for a
    trophy in his/her category, may compete for place, class or yardage
    group trophies."

    You may find the link above useful.
     
  6. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    I continue to be amazed by people who obviously have access to the internet but can't navigate to the rulebook of the organization they belong to. You can learn lots of stuff by reading the ATA rulebook.

    Scott
     
  7. oskerspap12

    oskerspap12 Active Member

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    I shot my way into E Class this year! Doing better.......
     
  8. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    I see I did misunderstand the OP.

    Seems I've seen a lot of this error here and I'd really like to know what is happening and what can be done to get the word out. I'm not trying to be rude, but where did you guys get the idea that category shooters couldn't win class trophies? Is it from this site, from the local gun clubs, or simply misunderstanding the rule after you read it?
     
  9. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    870,

    I think most of the problem stems from the fact that a person needs to read both item 4 and item 5 in order to get the complete "rule."

    I think most people read item 4 and don't continue on and read 5.
     
  10. bas

    bas Member

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    V10...And, there you have it! Per our past discussions. So many shooters think it is "carved in stone"...thanks for the clarification.
     
  11. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    The new category rule only applies to big shoots with All American points. Shoot Management at a small club shoot without All American points can continue to allow a category shooter a choice which trophy to take or shoot off for.
     
  12. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    V10, go back and read #4 that you posted. Category cannot "drop back" to class if they have a winning score in Category. If they shoot off for Cat that's it no dropping back.
    Now go back and read #5 again.

    If you declare a Category and have the winning score or tie but you cannot win Champion that's it, you shoot off for Category and you're done. Again i think that's it. JRM
     
  13. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    V10:

    I think you're right. #5 is really a bit redundant, but it's a good thing they included it anyway.

    I still don't like the rule.
     
  14. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Perga:

    Not sure exactly what you are saying, but V10 is correct. If you win or tie for a CAT trophy, you cannot win anything other than event Champ or the CAT trophy. If a VET shoots a 95 and 99 is high in VET, the 95 may win his class.

    EDIT: Now I think you understand the rule but may have misunderstood Scott's example above. He was not saying the Sr Vet with a 99 could take Class C, he was saying the Sr Vet with the 95 could take Class C.
     
  15. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    No. 5 isn't redundant at all. It covers the situation where a category shooter did not qualify for a category trophy.

    No. 4 covers the situation when a category shooter does qualify for a category trophy.

    Nos. 4 and 5 are mutually exclusive. You can't meet both. As a category shooter, you fall under the situation in 4 or the situation in 5.
     
  16. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    V10:

    EDIT here after you changed your post. #4 describes what happens if you qualify for a Vet trophy. If you don't qualify for a Vet trophy, #4 is inapplicable, and without some other restriction in the rules, you can take class etc. That's the way rules work. The result in #5 would occur without it actually being spelled out in the rules. That is what makes it redundant.

    Technically, you don't need #5 in this case. As I said it is a good idea though.
     
  17. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    870 you're right. JRM
     
  18. NintyT

    NintyT Member

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    I understand the rule okay, with one situational exception. If, for example, a veteran ties for veteran runner up, but his score is the lone high score in class, must he shoot off for vet runner up, or can he just elect to take the class trophy. I'm making the assumption there is no 3rd place veteran trophy. Chew that one over for me.
     
  19. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Since his score qualifies for a CAT trophy (tied for Vet RU) he cannot get a class trophy atall.
     
  20. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    NinetyT, you don't understand the rule then. In your example the Veteran qualifies for a category trophy. Therefore he must take that trophy.


    870: I understand what you are saying, but I also understand trap shooters (sorta). The "problem" that exists is that people, in many instances, are only reading item 4. Having done so, though, they aren't coming to the conclusion you have (i.e., if they don't qualify then they can shoot for place, class, yardage group.) Thus the need for item 5 so that the situation is clear.
     
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