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New ATA Special Category designation rules?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Aggie., Aug 25, 2009.

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  1. Aggie.

    Aggie. Member

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    Did the ATA Executive committee change the rules about designating what special category a shooter is eligible for? I heard at the Grand that now, while signing up, for instance a Junior Lady shooter could only declare herself in one of the two categories. The biggest change though would be that say a junior lady shooter in A class signed up to shoot for the Lady championship. She breaks her first 200 straight at the Grand in the CTC. When declaring for the shootoffs, she sees 4 lady all americans have broken 200 straight, but nobody in class A has broken a 200. Does the new rule mean she cannot decide to not shoot off and just take the A trophy?
     
  2. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    I'll go out on a limb here and tell you "no way".
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly, Aggie, but close. Now only one category can be declared (at classification.) A Lady who is also a Veteran can chose to "declare for"

    1. Lady

    2. Veteran

    3. Neither

    A declaration stands for the entire tournament.

    Case One, your example Aggie: Your Lady (declared) shooter can shoot off for Champion as always. But the previous practice, that is, being able to declare, soon after the last score is posted, whether she wants to go for class or Lady (in class events) or runner-up through whatever (in handicap) is no longer available. Since she is eligible for a category trophy, that's what she will get (or not get).

    Case Two: If she were not eligible for a category trophy, say she had broken a 199 in B. No eligibility for the Lady trophy since they have all been spoken for by contestants shooting 200. In this case, she would take the B trophy or shoot off for it or a lesser trophy in B , whatever the case may be.

    The effect is to effectively "declare for category" in every case rather than previous practice which left it up to the shooter. This applies, as did the old rule, not only to "real" shoot-offs but also carry-overs.

    The purpose of the change is to expedite shoot-offs, which can be delayed by the "declaration" rule in place for the last few years.

    These new rules apply to any tournament - now here's a spot I'm not sure about -

    It may be:

    1. Where All-american points are available in any event or

    2. Where ATA Trophies are available in any event.

    I'm almost sure it's All-American points, but just included the latter in case I miss-remember.

    While this rule was adopted by the Executive Committee, it was first sent out to gauge the degree of acceptance at each of the five Zone Meetings. The resulting feedback, on the order of 40 to 14 in favor, made it clear that if brought up for a vote, it would have passed overwhelmingly in the Thursday meeting. This - adopting rules which have overwhelming support at zone meetings - has been common practice for many years.

    The "passage" by the EC in no way prevented any member of the BOD from bringing it up for a vote, or discussion, or any consideration or purpose at all, at the Annual Meeting, where they were informed of the results of the Zone Meeting votes and the rule's subsequent adoption, based on those votes, by the EC.

    Neil
     
  4. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Are you serious Neil; the category shooter will not be able to decide to take the Class trophy before shootoffs anymore? Or are we each addressing different parts of his post?
     
  5. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    I think what it means is if you do not declare a special category before you shoot you will only be able to shoot for class. This is the section of the rules that seems to back that up.

    "J. SPECIAL CATEGORIES

    All Ladies, Juniors, Sub-Juniors, Veterans, and Senior Veterans must
    declare their special category at the time of their entry in any registered
    event. Without such declaration the shooter will not be allowed to
    compete for the applicable special category trophy. No shooter will be
    allowed to declare a special category after the first shot is fired in the
    event by the contestant. No exceptions to this rule are allowed.

    I interpret that to mean that if you do not declare your category before you shoot you are not allowed to pick and choose anymore. That is how I read it.

    Bob Lawless
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Bob, it's miles more complicated than that. First off, that rule doesn't apply anymore and will need rewriting. Second, that's not the rule which has been changed.

    Neil
     
  7. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Bob:

    I agree that category shooters must declare as such when registering for the event, nothing new there. I also have no problem if a new rule says they have to declare only one category before entering an event.

    The question raised above that I cannot believe has been changed is not allowing a category shooter to take a class trophy that they won clean.

    EDIT: OK, now that Neil has clarified that I guess the question is answered. I guess the limb I mentioned above broke, I'm surprised.
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    870, I hope you don't think I've led you astray, then covered my tracks.

    I've gone back and edited my original post several times to make it as clear as I can, since affected shoots will occur as early as next week and it's important that all of them are run on the same rules.

    As for the rest, I have written what I understand to be the case. I do not say it's impossible I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

    Neil
     
  9. Aggie.

    Aggie. Member

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    So let me get this straight. This hypothetical young lady shooter in class A, might have been guaranteed a trophy if she had dropped her last target for a 199, (winning Class A) rather than breaking a 200 and having to shootoff against 4 lady (AAA) all americans. That makes no sense. I have always thought that a rule like this would be proposed by the BOD at State meetings, where a real discussion would have been made. I did not hear anything about this until the Grand. I can understand trying to speed up shootoffs with shooters that qualify for multiple categories. BUT the shooter that breaks the best score in his class, SHOULD be able to win that class rather than shootoff and take a chance of not winning any trophy. Thank you for your reply Neil, Danny Thomason
     
  10. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    They have been trying to sell the notion that the category victory is more prestigious than the class win. I think that is a hard sell to the sub junior that just beat everybody in AA class. Or the lady, vet or sr. vet.

    870 said "The question raised above that I cannot believe has been changed is not allowing a category shooter to take a class trophy that they won clean."

    And Neil replied " Well, they can, 870, but only if they not eligible for a category one"

    So the sub Jr that shoots a 98 and comes in second to a sub jr 99 can win class B and take the class trophy but the 99 does not have that option??? Ask any category shooter if they prefer a trophy for beating three others in their category or if they would rather have a trophy for beating 20 adults in their class and my guess is they would much rather win class.

    We spend much time and effort encouraging category shooters to shoot and then we do this and they get discouraged. Why???

    Bob
     
  11. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    I understand the complications these category issues raise for shootoffs and can see why simplification is a goal.

    My problem with the rule change presented above is that it penalizes the category shooter just because they shot well. In the past, the category shooter had a choice to make and if they lost out on a trophy it was because of their shootoff track choice. Tough luck, live with your decision.

    As presented above, the new rule will penalize the shooter with the better score (200) over the shooter with the 199 even though they both made the exact same declaration. I'm not sure that is a great idea.
     
  12. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    If I understand correctly, this new approach went into effect after the Grand as a result of the general meeting. The reason:


    During one of the Grand Week hcp events, after pulling out all the top-scoring category shooters, I (no cat.) was tied for third in my yardage group with a group of 6 other non-cat shooters with scores of 95.


    When I went to check-in at the shootoff counter, I was told a lady category shooter who was tied with another lady with 96s, chose to take the non-cat third place trophy knocking all of the 95s out of contention.


    Does this change mean going forward that a person in her situation will not have the option she took and would be forced to shoot off the lady category tie if she wanted a chance to win the trophy?



    Guy Babin
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Neil Winston

    With all due respect I have always been a pretty big supporter of ATA rule and policies. If it is in the rule book it should be a rule. If it is not in the rulebook then how can anyone back/know the rule. Not to mention the fact that it shouldn't be there.

    This was taken from the 2009 Rulebook if it is going to be printed in the 2010 Rulebook differently I will bow to your knowledge. If not please explain to me how anyone that has only the Rulebook to go by avoids an argument in the middle of a shoot.

    870

    "The question raised above that I cannot believe has been changed is not allowing a category shooter to take a class trophy that they won clean."

    If the same category shooter shoots the only 200 in class or category where do we go? Given the rules discussion that has already taken place. I am not trying to start a pizzing contest I would just like to understand. As a lot of time people fire questions about you at the desk when they are signing up. I would really like to be able to explain it if it comes up.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Guy, you have it right.

    Bob, the meetings that change rules occur in mid-August. Important ones are sent to gun clubs, spread my word-of -mouth (as this one did), or wait for a new printing which this year should be record-early.

    Rule changes take effect (generally) 1 September, two weeks after the meeting.

    For a time, many will not know about new rules. It may take years for a new rule to "take hold" which is why changing them is risky. But somehow we muddle through.

    Neil
     
  15. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Neil as I said I will bow to your knowledge as at least until this year you run on the inside track. I thank you for the information and would like to take this opportunity(as you have said that you are retiring from ATA politics)to thank you for your knowledge and patients over the years on this site and me in particular.

    As far as what Guy had to say I do not agree with any wording that would support that type of practice. I feel that it is rather unfair to those that do not have any choice in the matter at all. I do however support the rules and will live with the way the policy says it is to be done.

    Bob Lawless
     
  16. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Well that makes my decision easy. When I go to the Western Grand in Spokane in early September I am Not going to declare Veteran, I'd rather take my chances in Class or Yardage Group.
     
  17. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Bob:

    I think the new rule is pretty clear as posted. You asked about the Cat shooter being the only 200 in Class; well, it looks like under the new rule, no Cat shooter breaking a 200 will ever be eligible for a Class trophy.

    If they don't shoot a winning score in Cat., but have high in class they can take the Class. That can't happen with a 200 though.
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Which is why, Mike, I included "Neither" as a possible declaration above. And that's why the rule first cited by Bob above has to be rewritten. It says:

    "All Ladies, Juniors, Sub-Juniors, Veterans, and Senior Veterans must declare their special category at the time of their entry in any registered event."

    and it will have to be changed to something like . . .

    "All Ladies, Juniors, Sub-Juniors, Veterans, Senior Veterans and Chairshooters who wish to compete for category trophies at a tournament where All-American points are available in any event must declare their special category at the time of their entry in any registered event. If they do not declare - and they are not required to - they will not be eligible for category trophies

    Already you see the problems in rewriting a rule. You have to try to cover everything in as few clear words as possible, so what I have put down will require a lot of work and what I suggested is too long, too clumsy, and doesn't really address as many problems* as it brings up. That's why there's always a delay.

    Neil

    * possible problems:

    Entry? - is that right, or should it say "classification." That would keep people from switching. But what if someone is classified and before entering talks to someone or reads this and wants "neither" before he or she enters? Well. then it's entry, but then what she goes half the tournament as "neither" and wants a category after that? If we don't want that, then classification is right. And so on.

    So - Do we really want two rules, one for AA-point shoots and one for the rest? The rules passed said AA-point shoots but who is going to keep that all straight? So can we just extend it to all shoots? No, that would not be fair, since it got its votes not based on the whole ATA, just some shoots.

    And so on.

    Neil
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    870, or runner-up or third.

    Neil
     
  20. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    870 until I see the new Rulebook and can read it for myself it will not be clear.

    If you are an adult male shooter 25 years old for a period of 40 years you have no choices in what you win you are allowed to win Class, Champion in event or Runner up in event and that is it.

    If you are a category shooter you have a choice of you class your category and all those mentioned under the Adult Male shooters. I just happen to believe that when you choose to shoot as category you should have that choice only. As it stands now category shooter are allowed to pick and choose what they want. It must be nice.

    Bob Lawless
     
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