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Neil Winston

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by JJM, Jan 15, 2010.

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  1. JJM

    JJM Member

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    Neil,
    We are down in AZ shooting and some clubs are miss understanding the
    new rules in this fashion:
    3 Shooters in Class AA ,all vets break 100 in the singles.
    The gun club awarded the vet trophy to one and the AA class trophy to a shooter with a score of 99. Does not seem right to me.
    Any thoughts on the matter.
    Joe Miller
     
  2. gary0920

    gary0920 Member

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    Rule change -

    Any shooter who has declared a special category at the time of classification and whose score qualifies for any trophy in his/her declared category, will compete for the category trophy and not for place, class or yardage group.
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I think that's right. By declaring for veteran, the other two shooters voted themselves out of the race for class trophies.

    Neil
     
  4. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    I'm failing to see the need for such a rule! Sure, the three 100s should have shot off for both trophies, but with only one trophy to an individual.....Bob Dodd
     
  5. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I would say it seems like the club understands the rules but the shooters don't ... Now the club will get a black eye from a bunch of shooters complaining about getting screwed, when they really didn't ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  6. JJM

    JJM Member

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    I don't think the rule change was meant to be used the way it is being used.
    It states on the ATA site the following:
    D. ATA TROPHIES
    1. Only one (1) ATA trophy shall be awarded to any one (1) person
    in any separate event. This means a contestant may not win both an
    ATA special category trophy and an ATA champion, runner-up/place,
    class, or yardage trophy.
    Trophies not provided by the ATA to States/Provinces or Zone are exempt from this rule.
    Any thoughts?
    Joe Miller
     
  7. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I was involved with running a club, we did things uniformly at every shoot and did not change things from day to day to avoid the confusion for us and the shooters ... Consistancy is important to many people so they can get accustomed to the way things are at a given club rather than guess how its going to be on any other given day ... This is a classic example of if the rule works in your favor, its good rule but if it don't it sucks when it really don't ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    JJM, the text I'm depending on is at the bottom page 37, in that same D section you cited.

    "4. Any shooter who has declared a special category at the time of
    classification and whose score qualifies for any trophy in his/her
    declared category, will compete for the category trophy and not for
    place, class or yardage group.
    "

    And I can not make it more clear than that. The veterans qualified for veteran trophies and so do not have any claim on class trophies.

    This is a rule change, instituted to speed shootoffs.

    Neil
     
  9. X2 fan

    X2 fan Active Member

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    JJM,

    If I read your post correctly, you are saying that a shooter cannot win both a Champion and/or class or category trophy. That's always been the case.

    This new rule was hashed out last fall right after it took effect at the Heartland Grand on these very pages.

    Basically, if a lady shooter declares that category (or any category shooter) at the beginning of the shoot, that shooter cannot win anything but Champ or their category in an event. They cannot take Class or yardage group. That's the way I understand it. Also a shooter that used to fall under say, Lady/Vet now can claim only one category. It is supposed to cut down on the need for shootoffs but from what I understand but it has created a mess, IMO. I know of what occured at Heartland where a lady shooter who lost the shootoff for Champ HAD TO take Lady and could not take her class. The result was little or no cash for that category vs. a good amount for the Class she couldn't take. All-American points remained the same for her, I think.
    I think what you're going to see is many ladies, juniors, etc. not declare a category to allow them shoot for class or yardgae group.

    I think it was a rule that was not well thought out and will see it's death for the next target year. Much like the rule a couple years ago that changed the dates of the target year. We'll see.

    Also, this rule is only in effect at shoots that award All-American points. If your local club chooses to do the same thing at a small weekend shoot, that is their prerogotive.

    My two cents worth,

    Tim
     
  10. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    I haven't changed my opinion and hope the rule is re-thunk!....Bob Dodd
     
  11. X2 fan

    X2 fan Active Member

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    Buck,

    I disagree. It simply makes for more confusion. That's because it's 'against the grain' of the way things used to be. And I don't think that way was bad. I suppose if this rule were to remain in effect shooters would get the hang of it.
    I hope it doesn't get that far.

    I can tell you that at my club, this rule will not be in effect at any shoots this year except for the ATA Central Zone shoot we are hosting.

    Tim
     
  12. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Thats the problem, everyone wants to make their own rules rather than live by the Bible that everyone else lives by ... Then when things get screwed up they complain like you took their only child ... Consistancy should rein supreme which ever way it is, like it or not ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  13. X2 fan

    X2 fan Active Member

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    WPT,

    No one is making their own rules! Clubs such as mine, are simply going by the ATA rule book! The rule clearly states that this will be enforced at ALL shoots that have All-American points available. Our club feels it takes too many chances to win away from shooters.

    I would not disagree that it is a problem that the ATA did not make this a 'universal' requirement at all ATA shoots.

    Tim
     
  14. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    If their score qualified them for a category trophy they would have received a category trophy. They did not. Therefore their score didnot qualify them for a category trophy and they should be entitled to a class trophy. When you shoot a 100 you should get a trophy. Don't give the trophy to someone shooting a lower score. What ever happened to common sense? HMB
     
  15. wlc

    wlc Member

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    This rule may make sense for the large shoots but is likely to create a lot of unhappiness at the smaller shoots. I agree that the rules should apply to all shoots to avoid misunderstandings and confusion. I hope the rule is rethought and changed.
     
  16. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    HMB -

    It's not about common sense, it's about how to apply the rule as written in the ATA rulebook.

    Qualifying for a category trohpy and winning one are two different things - and actually you can take the word category out of the sentence and it will still have the same meaning. In this case three vets tied for the vet trophy, so the winner would have been determined by whatever means was being used to settle ties. Doesn't really matter if they were vets or not - 3 people for one trophy, there are going to be two without a trophy.

    In addition, your statement "their score did not qualify them for a category trophy and they should be entitled to a class trophy" is incorrect, even if the new rule did not exist. You are not allowed to fall-back from class to category or category to class, so if the new rule was not in place they would have had to choose between class or category.

    Scott
     
  17. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Neil Winston and Jon Hiter,

    I always read the rules annually and have a great deal of respect for those who take that responsibility.

    What were the reasons that the rule was changed other than to help simplify shoot offs. I understand that at a big shoot that the biggest complaint is how long the shoot offs take because of the complexity of the old system and the need to be oh so careful not to leave people out of an important event determination. I've heard both sides of the category issue and I've made up my mind as to what I think is best as it relates to this consideration.

    Where there other considerations for the rules change? Thanks, Barry
     
  18. X2 fan

    X2 fan Active Member

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    One of the best explainations I have read re: this new rule is in the Oct. issue of Trap & Field. Look at the column from the Iowa Delegate, Dan Wood, in the front section "Around the ATA".
    He states that he was one who helped draft the rule and pushed for it's enaction at the Grand (Board of Directors and Zone Meetings) where it was voted on.

    He does a good job telling of the reasoning behind the rule and it's intentions for passage. I still don't think it was well thought out as to all the implications it has created but we all have to wait and see on that.

    Tim
     
  19. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    WPT the problem is the BIBLE is being revised every year it seems, all it does is add to confusion.

    Did these 3 veterans shootoff or was one just selected because he was going to shoot for veteran only?

    The 3 of them should have shot off and there would only be one winner, maybe a carried over score.

    But if you don't declare you can't win anything in any category it seems.

    Wait until next year we will have a new rule by size and weight and gender and ethencicty and whether you are a citizen or not. The bigger shooters have the advantage as they absorb recoil better.

    Ha Ha

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  20. TNCoach

    TNCoach Member

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    Neil,

    Please take a look at RJStuart's website and the trophies for the 2010 Dixie Grand. Let's just say that there's a sub-junior (EUBANKS JACKSON D) that has won 3 class trophies and 5 sub junior trophies. I didn't think this was possible under the current rule structure.

    I'm confused, unlike Joe's example there are All American points at the Dixie Grand. Does it mean that the sub-junior didn't have to declare his class?

    TNCoach
     
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