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Neil Winston--Small Shot v. Large Shot

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by HTSmith, Jun 9, 2013.

  1. HTSmith

    HTSmith Active Member

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    I certainly appreciate you sharing the results of your testing here. I'd held on the the slow loads pattern tighter than fast loads notion for years. The other I've held onto is that big shot patterns tighter than small shot, all other things being equal. Does that one prove in or out according to your testing?

    Thanks
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    HT, both Andrew Jones and I generally failed to reproduce any of that gun club ballistical lore. In the range of speeds and shot sizes commonly used in trap, speed is speed and shot-size is shot-size and there isn't any difference we could discover. Lighter shot-loads put fewer pellets in the pattern but the centers generally hold up better than the next area out.

    Soft shot puts fewer pellets on the bird, sizes and loads being equal. Forty thousandths choke produce the tightest patterns, generally, though after 0.035 it's all about the same. Tighter chokes don't "blow patterns" either. Nor do they shoot tighter.

    In other words, there is a lot less to all this than you either read or have been told.

    We, of course, welcome contrary data. Note: "data."

    Neil
     
  3. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    In other words, just shoot the damn thing! LOL
     
  4. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Well... perhaps. Me (myself), I have switched to "Versalite" wads as a one size fits all into whatever hull is in the hopper. Forget all that lup and psi brain mush, make a batch of easter egg reloads and go break some clays. And one thing I can tell you for sure is that if you are having difficulty getting all that stuff in a hull and making the crimp resemble a factory load, the Versalite has all the space you need to fill using a 33b of green dot and 1-1/8 oz lead. NO more BBs in the box.

    Eh?
     
  5. 4th. down

    4th. down Active Member

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    Agree on the Versalite.

    Andrew Jones mentioned that after about .030 their is not a significant difference. Believe Neil was alluding to that also. Kinda like splitting hairs after .030.
     
  6. sasquach

    sasquach Member

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    Neil, Have you ever done any work with heavy loads of bigger shot and chokes? 4's,5's,and 6's. Does speed have any effect on patterns on larger sizes?
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    No, Sasq, my club is limited to 7 1/2's so I have no knowledge about larger sizes. That's why I always try to remember to limit my conclusions to trap-appropriate speeds/sizes/ loads and distances.

    Neil
     
  8. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Neil,

    I've been shooting two factory loads lately, for sporting clays:

    Rio 1 oz. at 1280 fps, and B&P 7/8 oz. at 1230 fps. The lighter loads seem to produce less than half the felt recoil of the Rios, although I bet part of that is psychological.

    Based on what I think you have been saying for a long time, I would be ok with the lighter loads out to about 35-40 yards or so, with not-so-open-chokes. My misses are by feet, but flinches caused by recoil can cause me to pull my head off the stock by inches, which translates to feet out there.

    I swear the 7/8 oz. loads in my 8 lb. plus XS Special feel like a Daisy Red Ryder.

    Danny
     
  9. Avaldes

    Avaldes Well-Known Member

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    Neil,

    Do you shoot 8's or 7.5's for singles? Do you mostly shoot pitch or bio targets?

    -Aaron
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Eights for singles. All our clubs throw pitch-based White Flyers and they disappear when solidly hit. They are really great targets! I shot ten flats of 8 1/2's a few years ago and saw no difference. Plenty of 7 1/2's too, now and then. Again, can't tell the difference if there is any.

    I shoot 7 1/2's for handicap. Or 8's. Depends on what I find in the minivan. I'd never not shoot just because I don't have one kind of shells or another but if I have plenty of 7 1/2's I shoot them. I see a waist-high stack of flats of heavy AA 8's in my storage building and I suppose they will be shot up sometime this summer. I may try to decide if they are better or worse, if I can. Or maybe I'll shoot better if I just don't worry about it.

    Neil
     
  11. otnot

    otnot Active Member

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    I think what Neil is trying to say is that, no matter what size shot or shell or choke you shoot you still have to hit the target. There is no magic shell or choke combination that will make your scores better. The only magic is gun fit and practice!
     
  12. Avaldes

    Avaldes Well-Known Member

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    Well what fun is that?!? :)
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Danny, I've never understood the point of those handicap-speed one-ounce loads. If you are willing to give up pellet-count for greater comfort, then why don't you at least get the comfort? It makes no sense to me. I've shot the Nitro 27 one-ouncers and I don't like them at all.

    You don't need the speed. The videos Ron and I took show almost all the targets hit by a single pellet broken and that's singles and handicap. The exception is AA Featherlites which had too high a rate of hit-but-not-broken targets for us. (see note below)

    Even with your 7/8 ounce load. The kick is nice and low but who needs 1230 fps? (If you can make slower burn right - a problem.) I used Bullseye but Red Dot worked too. I went back to one ounce for the first shot in doubles though 7/8 seems to work fine.

    Neil

    Note: Here's a video of the too-slow shells. Too many one-pellet hits and no break to get our confidence.

    http://www.mn-trap.org/tech_corner/n_winston/images/nodomesbroken.mp4

    Note too that the shot is way over the bird. But _none_ of the breaks give any clue of that. No "You are breaking the tops off them!" or "See how you are driving the pieces down!.

    Just a reminder that you can't read target breaks to guess where the shot was. It doesn't work at all - in fact, a hundred percent failure rate in this video.

    Neil
     
  14. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    (Groan)...here comes all the anecdotal bullsh_t about what happened when International went to light fast loads (bet they'd all go back if they could).
     
  15. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Neil and Jack,

    A popular chart shows "Time of Flight (seconds) to".... 40 yards, 7.5 shot, 1295 fps at muzzle - .132 sec., 1145 fps at muzzle - .144 sec. That translates to a difference in forward allowance of a little under 8.5 inches on a 90-degree crosser at 40 mph. Unless someone were consistently hitting such a target with just the front edges of their pattern, this difference would not be descernible, in my estimation.

    (Assuming the chart I refer to is nearly correct.)

    So, if that is true, or not patently false, how low would you go on speed? Would 1 oz. at 1145 feel lighter on recoil than 7/8 oz. at 1295?

    I shoot mainly clays, but the implication is the same as trap doubles. With a true pair, you almost have to shoot the nearest bird first, unless the second bird is an incomer. 7/8 of 7.5 or 8 shot should be plenty of pattern for anything out to about 30 yards, and a powder-puff load would help keep the gun in place for the second bird.

    Danny
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Danny, I limited myself to "usual speed for trap" and I did so to avoid dealing with some 1 1/8 oz., 1030 shells that did indeed pattern tighter than shells going 100 and 200 fps faster.

    [​IMG]

    While the faster shells were all the same:

    [​IMG]

    I thought at the difference was clear and important enough to make sure my own first-shot-in-doubles shells were going at least 1150 fps.

    And your recoil question ? I don't know. Try them both and see, I guess. I think all the super-speed light-load stuff is for the birds (or bunker). Light 8's have broken 100's for generations - why not just accept that and work on something else?

    By the way, we shoot birds at a max angle of about 25-28 degrees and they are going not 40 mph but nearer 30, so your estimate of lead change drops to less than half that 8 inches. That's good, since I think I do shoot to within 8 inches, most of the time. And the good shooters way closer than that! And all the time.

    Neil