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Neil Winston--a data question

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by V10, Feb 13, 2010.

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  1. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    "Bar" is a unit of pressure that is equivalent to approximately 14.5 psi.

    So, 1,050 Bar is 15,225 psi. The link above shows a slightly more verbose answer.
     
  2. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    Roger,

    Those Nitro Pheasants pattern like S**t! A much better long distance shoot-off shell is the Federal 1 1/4 1330fps shells that you can get from wallyworld. You'll find this out for yourself after you shoot a couple.

    The posting by V10 is very inaccurate so disreguard it. No shell manufacturer is going to produce for sale a shell that exceeds sammi specs.

    ss
     
  3. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    Those are 3-inch magnum shells. Can you even use them in a trap gun?

    MK
     
  4. Remstar311

    Remstar311 Member

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    On the contrary short shucker-
    You are the inaccurate poster. Perhaps you should try converting 1050 bar to psi?

    1 bar = 14.5037738 pounds per square inch

    1050 bar = 15,228.9625 pounds per square inch

    Paul from Alliant said this on shotgun world:
    "I spoke to my SAAMI counterparts at both Federal and Remington and they gave me the explanation. (I am not that well versed in CIP requirements, but here goes.) Apparently, the europeans require the shotshells to be certified at either a high pressure or low pressure range. The high pressure is the 1050bar (15+Kpsi), while the low pressure equates to around 10,600psi. Federal and Remington (and Winchester, I'm sure) produce to SAAMI specs, so they can't assure that their ammo will be under 10,600psi, so they stamp it for the higher pressure range. That does not mean that they are producing ammo that generates 1050bar, they produce to SAAMI standards, so that would be 11,000psi max average pressure for 10ga, 14,000psi max average pressure for 12ga 3.5" and 11,500psi max average pressure for the rest of the 12ga. "
     
  5. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    They make them in 2 3/4" as well.

    Remstar',

    The formula is flawed, as posted, in reguards to shotgun shells. I repete, "No ammunition manufacturer is going to produce shells that exceed sammi specs for that gauge or caliber". This is pretty much a no brainer!


    ss
     
  6. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    "Bar" is a unit of pressure that is equivalent to approximately 14.5 psi.

    So, 1,050 Bar is 15,225 psi. The link above shows a slightly more verbose answer.
     
  7. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    Roger,

    Those Nitro Pheasants pattern like S**t! A much better long distance shoot-off shell is the Federal 1 1/4 1330fps shells that you can get from wallyworld. You'll find this out for yourself after you shoot a couple.

    The posting by V10 is very inaccurate so disreguard it. No shell manufacturer is going to produce for sale a shell that exceeds sammi specs.

    ss
     
  8. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    Those are 3-inch magnum shells. Can you even use them in a trap gun?

    MK
     
  9. Remstar311

    Remstar311 Member

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    On the contrary short shucker-
    You are the inaccurate poster. Perhaps you should try converting 1050 bar to psi?

    1 bar = 14.5037738 pounds per square inch

    1050 bar = 15,228.9625 pounds per square inch

    Paul from Alliant said this on shotgun world:
    "I spoke to my SAAMI counterparts at both Federal and Remington and they gave me the explanation. (I am not that well versed in CIP requirements, but here goes.) Apparently, the europeans require the shotshells to be certified at either a high pressure or low pressure range. The high pressure is the 1050bar (15+Kpsi), while the low pressure equates to around 10,600psi. Federal and Remington (and Winchester, I'm sure) produce to SAAMI specs, so they can't assure that their ammo will be under 10,600psi, so they stamp it for the higher pressure range. That does not mean that they are producing ammo that generates 1050bar, they produce to SAAMI standards, so that would be 11,000psi max average pressure for 10ga, 14,000psi max average pressure for 12ga 3.5" and 11,500psi max average pressure for the rest of the 12ga. "
     
  10. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    They make them in 2 3/4" as well.

    Remstar',

    The formula is flawed, as posted, in reguards to shotgun shells. I repete, "No ammunition manufacturer is going to produce shells that exceed sammi specs for that gauge or caliber". This is pretty much a no brainer!


    ss
     
  11. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    SS,

    So which part of 14.5 x 1,050 = 15,225 is flawed?
     
  12. Remstar311

    Remstar311 Member

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    Its a european thing. Obviously they aren't going to exceed SAAMI specs, they would be liable for the damages. They can't guarantee that they are under 10.6K, so they guarantee they are under its under 10.5 bar-


    "That does not mean that they are producing ammo that generates 1050bar, they produce to SAAMI standards, so that would be 11,000psi max average pressure for 10ga, 14,000psi max average pressure for 12ga 3.5" and 11,500psi max average pressure for the rest of the 12ga. "
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    V10- Your calculation is correct. I do not know what SS is referring to. The shells have max 14.5 bar printed on them. This means the shells have a maximum pressure of 15,225 psi. I have no idea what the minimum pressure generated would be, but certainly it is less than the maximum pressure. I do not know what a maximum average of 14,000 psi means (Remstar311 post). If this is truly an average, then it indicates some shells may be well over 14,000 psi. All of the SAAMI specifications I am familiar with have a rather wide + or - range on their specifications.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. Remstar311

    Remstar311 Member

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    It was a quote from another poster, 14000 psi max for 3.5" 12 ga.
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Remstar311- My question was actually based on the term "maximum average". If there is a maximum average, there must also be an average average and a minimum average.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    Pat and Remstar,

    I believe part of the misunderstanding is stemming from the shell in question. The shell I'm talking about is the 2 3/4" Remington Nitro Pheasant shells. They make these in 1 1/4oz and 1 3/8oz of copper plated shot. They had that silly bar statement on the side of the shell running lengthwise.

    I was foolish enough to shoot a box of these a few years back because of a mispriced lot of shells. They shot horribly and the recoil was tremendous.

    I still say that the pressure is fine for a 2 3/4" chambered gun because the shell manufacturer isn't going to produce a shell that exceeds sammi spec's.

    ss
     
  17. redhawk44

    redhawk44 Member

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    What is the argument about?

    A201 asked a question and V10 answered it correctly, so what is the argument about SAMMI Specifications about? It does say 1050 BAR MAX, not that the shells were actually loaded to that level.

    Can a man drive at 60 MPH on a hiway that has a 70 MPH MAXIMUM speed limit?
     
  18. pheasantmaster

    pheasantmaster Well-Known Member

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    redhawk44, just typical ts bs. How often do you ever see the discussion stay on the subject question even when a specific simple answer is asked for? Alot of folks seem to have to add their own spin wether asked for or not! The funny part is that alot of times they prove to be wrong or just simple dumba$$e$.
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    redhawk44- No. If the speed limit posted is 70 MPH, you must drive 75 MPH unless you are a trucker. It is very impolite to impede others. The only exception is, when driving to the Southern Grand in North Florida you will pass through two small towns with large billboard signs stating speed trap ahead.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    I guess I'm looking at things from a business point of view. With that printing on the side of the shell the manufacturer is selling a flawed product by admission.

    Example:

    Shooter A is shooting said shells in question. Shooter A has a catastrauphic failure of his firearm due to excessive pressures (not caused by barrel obstruction). Shooter A receives grave injuries and is incompassitated.

    Shooter A's family hires lawyer to find out who's at fault. Lawyer investigates what led up to the failure and the equipment being used. Gun pieces go out for testing and ammunition is inspected for flaws and to see if it is a factory shell or reload.

    Gun comes back from testing and is said to failed due to excessive chamber pressure and no evidense of barrel obstruction is present.

    Lawyer then sends shells (the unfired ones left after catastrauphic failure)out for testing.

    That BAR max pressure listed on the side of the shells is discovered to be in excess of sammi safety standards for said gun.

    Tha manufacturer, by admission, knows that this loading can produce pressures that exceed manufacturing safty tolerances. Wheter or not the shell does is irrelevant.

    Lawyer sues ammunition manufacturer for producing a shell that exceeds safety specifications. It says so right on the side of the shell.

    This kinda thing happens all the time. That is the reason why packaging is so important to products sold to the general public.

    ss
     
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