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Neil, another way to control sandbagging

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by jappo, Jun 6, 2007.

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  1. jappo

    jappo TS Member

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    Neil, another way to control (probably not stop) sandbagging at least in singles and doubles is like the rules that was used in IMHSA pistol siloutte shooting. I felt like a lot of the people do now when I started shooting. As I was working my way up and in class B or C and shot a really good score for that class and didn't even come close to winning. Very discouraging especially when you see those same people shoot a very low score for the next few months and then back at a big shoot run another 99 or 100. I have three friends about to quit now because of that particular reason. They can get in the upper levels of their class but not close to the upper 90's
    Here it is: If you have say 5 classes that day (D,C,B,A,AA) and are a C shooter and you run them and shoot a AA score. You move up to the class below where you shot that day. So that day you move to A class. Another part of that is that you have to shoot at least two classes above where you are. I believe if you are a C shooter and you shoot B scores twice you move up to B. Anyone interested in all of the details should go to the IMSHA site and read the rules unless they have changed them. I know for the people I know that are starting out, it would make them feel like the system is a little more fair. But from reading other posts on here I doubt that it would fly in ATA. It seemed to work in IMSHA and I never heard anyone gripe about sandbagging there. Just another thought.
     
  2. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    I could be wrong but I don't think that there is too much sandbagging in singles and doubles. What would be the point? John
     
  3. jappo

    jappo TS Member

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    John, there is just as much sandbagging in singles as handicap if not more. I have never been to a big shoot that it didn't take a 98 or higher to win a class in C,D or higher.
    From what I hear from beginning shooters, it is the singles event that discourages them more than anything. They don't think they have much of a chance in handicap or doubles yet anyway being knew to the sport but they hope they have a chance shooting singles with people in their class. Not going to happen the way it is now. I would guess the ATA loses 3-5 shooters for each one that stays for this reason.
    There is going to be a lot of naysayers but that is why it won't change or get any better.
     
  4. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    duper Pat said it,s not so . He said D class is in the low 90,s to high 80,s . But I also have seen alot of D class 97,s and higher win the bigger shoots .
     
  5. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    I'm going to slammed like a midget wrastlin Hulk Hogan but why does the ATA not institute some solid unquestionable rules without any variance allowed by anyone at all to take care of sandbaggers.

    If the ATA would enact and enforce a rule that all shooters will be classified as AA unless there is proof and verification by the ATA website what class they really are. This would take the ATA to update all scores in a much more timely manner or allow registered shoots to send a data file to the ATA with an auto update of all shooters scores from a registered event. Clubs would also have to be online to check as shooters register verifying the class of the shooter. If a listed "A" shooter tries to register as a "D" or "C" shooter the club could also be able to flag the ATA that they have a cheetin slimebaggin sandbagger and not only refuse to let them shoot but also have it listed for all future registered shoots to know about this sandbagger.

    Almost all problems can be fixed if there are people are willing to fix them. The problem is those that dont want them fixed wont let those who want to fix them fix them.
     
  6. Gargoyle!

    Gargoyle! TS Member

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    The ATA has to list or add the shooters score to their record. Here a shooter is shooting targets that areD and C class scores. 85 or less. Here that same shooter is at a BIG ShOOT and shoots a 98 99 100. the computer should be able to say HEY SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT HERE. The person should have their past scores looked at and if their scores show a BIG IMPROVEMENT then they are sandbagging. They should he dealt with. If someone shoots a high score then they move up a class they should stay there and not allowed a deduction for 2000 targets. Once you get ONE deduction thats it. You learn to shoot in that class or yardage. No other deductions ever.
     
  7. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

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    To really fix the problem you get rid of class awards! Give out awards like this.

    Champion
    Runner-UP
    3rd

    Then

    Lewis class the rest.

    The more shooters that you have the more top awards you give out so say for 1000 shooters you have say 2% of the shooters at the top and the rest would fall out into a lewis class.

    Ronbo
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The ATA does have some recommendations on classification of singles and doubles but no regulations. Classification of these events is left up to the clubs.

    The ATA could adopt some of the recommendations suggested above and stop sandbagging in singles and doubles. This would force a very few shooters who now cheat to shoot in higher classes. It would also force the 99.9% of the honest shooters to compete in unreasonably high classes. Some do not seem to be able to realize that now and then a C/D shooter can have a great day. At a large shoot, it is expected that one or two will shoot very well.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Pat ... I dont understand how 99.9% of the honest shooters would now be competing in unreasonably higher classes?

    If they are an honest "B" class shooter would they not be shooting in "B" class both before and after taking care of sandbaggers?

    If a C/D shooter had a great day out of many registered shoots it would help to increase his average but by just how much? If he was borderline C/D it might help him move to a C but maybe keep him at D ... ya just dont know until the ATA average is made after the shoot.

    Mentioning how honest shooters would be hurt by taking care of the cheaters is an insult to those shooters who are honest and just want to compete with other honest shooters. Possibly things like this could be a reason why the numbers at registered shoots are falling as fast as Rosie's career on The View.
     
  10. schockstrap

    schockstrap Active Member

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    One thing that could possibly help classifiers would be to print the previous year's high scores along with the shooter's average. That way they'll at least see that someone may have averaged 87% but shot one good score the previous year(s). The classifier will still have to make a judgement call on overall ability.

    Other than that, I don't see what all the fuss is about. New shooters have to start somewhere. If you start them at the top class and have them work their way down to where they belong, many are going to get frustrated. If you start them at the bottom and let them shoot their way up, good shooters are going to post very high scores in the lower classes as they move up. Starting people in the middle affects the "average" shooter adversely, making it very difficult to win the middle class (as this is where up-and-coming, rebounding, and new unknown shooters will be competing). You can't please everyone.


    As far as having the central ATA office classify people, I don't think that is practical. If you shoot just one D-class score during the year, you'll have to post a lot of A-class scores to get your average back into the A-class numbers. Since it's going to be the very rare case that someone in the main ATA office knows your ability by anything other than average, the local club has to have a way to get you into the right class.

    --Dan
     
  11. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    I'm going to get slammed like Trump slammed Rosie but the problem is the ATA does not want to change because they really do not care. As long as people pay there dues and pay the ATA fee for registered targets the ATA will keep going like it is. Yes there are some within the organization who do care but they are the minority.

    It is what it is and that is what everyone must live with. People on TS.com think they are all mighty and powerful but as Neil or Pat once mentioned (I dont remember which) that when TS.com is brought up at times to higher ups in the ATA all they do is role there eyes in bewilderment about people on the internet. That is kind of true because here at TS.com we are nothing more than a pimple on the rump of the ATA.

    Talk of change is always good but we must realize that all that is happening is talk and almost nothing will actually change.
     
  12. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    I would not mind seeing something where shooting a certain score automatically gets you out of D Class. Say 96 or 97, something like that. Baseing it on wins at small shoots isn't as good because you might be the only D at a shoot, differences in winning scores at different shoots etc.

    Once you are out you could not go back, or set some strict requirements to get back. This won't help lots of shooters but at least the shooters I feel are the most frustrated with the scores needed to win their class would get a better chance.

    The biggest thing is for classifiers not to rely only on averages, look at those scores! Also, wins in D class at state level and up should move you up. You got your moment, let someone else have a shot. Look back through your state shoot results, see who has repeatedly been winning class D trophies over the years and make management aware of it.
     
  13. tlea

    tlea TS Member

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    Do you want one reason to know why people don't shoot registered. Read above
     
  14. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    The local clubs are the problem ... the local classification of the shooters is the problem. If the ATA is supposedly as up-to-date as they want to be on the scoring why cant a "classifier" sit at a table and take a shooters ATA # and type it into the computer and ... BOING ... the ATA has your current average as "BLIP" so that makes you a "BLIP" class shooter today. No questioning ... no guessing ... heck if the shooter comes to shoot knowing the requirements to shoot for money must be 500 registered singles in that year and he knows he only has 100 singles he can either shoot in his "BLIP" class for score only or if he decides he wants to shoot for money and score he can shoot with the "AA" class that day.

    Sounds simple but maybe simple is what people dont want because it might just be to freakin simple.
     
  15. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Lumper, lots of clubs have that information already. Average is not everything in classifying, that is where many of the problems come from.

    What we have to realize is that the ATA does not classify anyone (outside of the Grand) because they don't have any required classes to use. You can't make a flat out rule about someone's class because different shoots might have 3 classes, or 5 classes, or six classes etc. and what class you belong in would vary based on the number of classes.

    It's easy to type a wish list here, but you must realize it is much harder to actually write a rule that really works; much more difficult than many think.

    Lumper says ATA does not care, but I'm not sure that he understands all the issues that have to be considered. It may be that there are other issues or other sides to a matter, not that they don't care.

    It certainly does not hurt to throw ideas out here, but realize that each has to be considered carefully.
     
  16. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Hmmm ... so if you dont have enough shooters for all 5 classes and decide to only have 3 classes at a registered shoot what determines the class your going to be in? A person sitting at a table making a judgement of some sort of your classification or ... the ATA average on the computer.

    Hmmm ... 3 classes ... all shooters with an "ATA" average of 95 or better will today be the top class, all shooters with an "ATA" average of 87 to 94 will be the next class of shooters and all shooters less than an "ATA" average of 87 will be the bottom class of shooters.

    No guessing ... no determining of ability ... nothing other than the listed average on the ATA site is how it is figured and it aint that a rule is hard to write what makes it hard is the enforcement of that rule. You are also right that the ATA does care, they care about not really upsetting the masses because only a very small majority, that pimple upon there butt is the ones who are complaining.
     
  17. cueguy2

    cueguy2 TS Member

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    Fact: Sandbagging cannot be eliminated in trapshooting or any other sport. I quit playing in golf tournaments of any kind because of the blatant sandbagging. I quit playing in handicapped pool leagues because of the sandbagging. I have experienced very little sandbagging in trap. I believe it is a very small percentage that sandbag.
    As long as there are awards ( trophies, rings, money, etc ) to be won, someone will circumvent the system to get some of it. Just human nature.
    I just enjoy every day that I get to spend with my friends on the line and shooting the breeze afterwards. I also like to see puffs of smoke when I pull the trigger. I play no options. Phil Kiner told me at a clinic to put all the option money I wanted to spend in a jar. At the end of the season, I will have more money than almost all that play options. C'mon, just enjoy shooting. Nubs Wagner.
     
  18. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Lump: As I said, ATA can't say you are flat-out an "X" class shooter no matter what based on your average because it could vary based on how many classes management wanted. In other words, ATA can't stamp "C" class on your card like a punch. That is not flexible enough.

    As you seem to be saying, yes, they could easily make a rule that if your average fell in the suggested class guidelines you are in that class, period. That would be easy as you have stated. It would also be an awful rule! You must have realized from all the threads on this site that classifying based on average alone is a big part of the problem. You say they don't care about shooters when, thankfully, the reality is that they are smart enough to realize an answer like yours is in reality, nothing.

    Your solution is not one at all, it is what most clubs currently use, and you can see that many are still upset.

    Now tell me, what is the easy solution to classifying again?
     
  19. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    870 ... I stopped reading your post as soon as I read "suggested" for that is the entire problem of the "ATA". All they really are is a organization that makes suggestions as to how clubs should run there shoots. Nothing more and nothing less than a suggestion organization.

    Did you say anything of any importance after the word suggested?
     
  20. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Yes Lump, I pointed out that your brilliant idea for change is what is already in place at just about every registered shoot I have attended.

    What else do you have?
     
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