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Need history lesson

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Rick Barker, Sep 1, 2009.

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  1. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone tell me when the ATA was first created what was the longest handicap yardage? Was it the 25 or closer in?
     
  2. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    1900 founded,,,,couldn't find the yardage, but was stated in another post, "For many years, the 25yd line was the maximum yardage of the Amateur Trapshooting Association (A.T.A.). However, the 27yd line finally came to be in the mid-50s, due mainly to the extraordinary ability of Arnold Riegger, from the State of Washington."

    Hope this helps.
     
  3. BigBruno

    BigBruno TS Member

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    Subject: Need history lesson
    From: bigdogtx
    Email:
    Date: Tue, Sep 01, 2009 - 11:41 PM ET
    Website Address: http://shootata.com/Content/About_The_ATA/Overview_of_the_ATA.aspx

    1990 founded,,,,couldn't find the yardage, but was stated in another post, "For many years, the 25yd line was the maximum yardage of the Amateur Trapshooting Association (A.T.A.). However, the 27yd line finally came to be in the mid-50s, due mainly to the extraordinary ability of Arnold Riegger, from the State of Washington."


    I'm sure you're much more educated on trapshooting than I, but founded in 1990? I thought it was around 1889.
     
  4. Beretta687EELL

    Beretta687EELL Well-Known Member

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    Here is a link to the Trapshooting Hall of Fame. Tons of neat stuff there. Bill Malcolm
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Here's just a tad of trapshooting history from one of our best past Presidents. Neal Crausbay.

    Hap

    Subject: HCP What Happened In The Past? HCP
    From: Neal Crausbay
    Email:
    Date: 25-Aug-09


    Barry we know the maximum yardage was increased on Jan. 1, 1955 from the 25 to the 27. This was mostly due to Arnold Rieger's winning so many handicaps. To note that he wasn't placed in a Professional Class nor was the allowed shot charge reduced, but that concrete was poured should be of interest to some that think a Pro class or less shot is the answer to today's handicap domination by a few. This change in 1955 only affected the one(s) winning so often.

    This increased yardage must have slowed down Arnold as his name only appears once in the HOF's "Trapshooting record Holders" and that is that he was the second person to obtain the 27 yard line, 2 months after it was put in place. That would suggest that even though he reached the new maximum yardage quickly, his domination of the handicap event was over or he would have surely made the record book in some additional way had his domination continued.

    Either the increase in concrete in 1955 or the difficulty of the angles, or both, prevented anyone from breaking a 100 off the 27 for 9 years (1964). How many scores of 100 from the 27 were shot in this last Grand? Compare that to the fact as several have pointed out, that the Grand is a gathering of the best shooters in the country and the winning scores should be high. O.K., using that thought, we should note that no one was able to win the Grand American Handicap beyond the 23 until 1970 (won from 24 yards) and not until 1978 did anyone win the GAH from the maximum 27.

    Additionally, history indicates there were two or more maximum yardage increases prior to 1955. I gave some information on this in a prior thread:

    " The Trapshooting Hall of Fame could probably look this up if they have rulebooks going back far enough, but let me attempt to narrow down the dates of the maximum yardage by using Forest McNeir’s autobiography, ‘Forest McNeir of Texas’. McNeir is an inductee in the HOF and if any of you haven’t read his book, you should, as it is a very enjoyable read.

    On page 230 McNeir states in the first paragraph while mentioning the Grand in the year 1913, “That was when 22 yards was the limit.”

    Looking at past GAH winners, Mark Arie won the Grand Handicap in 1923 from 23 yards so sometime between 1913 and 1923 yardage was increased to 23 yards.

    Now on page 234 when telling about his shooting with a caddy to load his gun that the handicap committee put him on 18 yards, ‘The next year, in 1938, they put me back on 25 yards, and kept me there till I was 74.’

    Now we can surmise that between 23 and no later than 1938, the maximum was increased to 25 yards. McNeir further states on page 234, ‘In 1943 there were only four men on 25 yards – Joe Heistand, Carl Maust, Julius Petty, and myself.’ We don’t know if he was speaking of just at the Grand or in the entire membership, but either way it wasn’t crowded on the 25."

    Now we've been 54 years without a maximum yardage increase while during this time target distance has been shortened, angles narrowed, voice releases incorporated, and we wonder why the maximum yardage shooters are kicking butts.

    I hope this gives at least some information on your question.

    Shoot well and often.
     
  6. SPORTALLURING

    SPORTALLURING Active Member

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    To be correct, the first association was 1889, American Shooting Association. Changed names two or three more times. The ATA that we know today was not started until 1924. I have about
    three different old rule books from the late 1880`s and 1890`s.
    SPORTALLURING
     
  7. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    I have some magazines 1 dated 1929 showing max yardage as 25 but you would have to have a 97 or higher average in singles to be placed on the 25. Back then they didn't go by punch's in handicap.
     
  8. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Thanks guys for the info. I used to say a lot of articles about this stuff, but threw it out a number of years ago. I was thinking I read somewhere the max handicap yardage was 22 yards when people were using side by sides.

    There is a fascinating article this month in TrapshootingUSA about how our shotgun sport was born and its' early roots. Capt Adam H. Bogarous was the Champion Wing Shot of the World during the 19th century and master of the live piegon game. He once shot 500 live birds in 645 minutes for $1000.00 with a muzzle loader and he did his own loading. In this article by Mr. Dave Holmes, he talks about glass ball targets being shot at 25 yards by the hot shots of the day and the ATA was founded in 1915 the first president was John Philip Sousa.

    If you can get this magazine, (September-October 2009, Journal 3) this article is a good read.

    I hope TrapshootingUSA forgives me for using these bits of information from this article without seeking permission first. The last paragraph says:

    "The history of clay target shooting still marches on. We still quibble about the small stuff, don't want to give our money to the really good shooters and look for the perfect Handicap system. Why? 'Cause we love what we do.' There are a few things in the world that never change."
     
  9. SPORTALLURING

    SPORTALLURING Active Member

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    Rick, was just going through a couple of the early rule books I had mentioned.
    In the 1890`s rule book clay target yardage, the longest mentioned was 18 yds.
    I did find in a 1909 rule book showing a chart back to the 23 yard line. Hope this helps. Sportalluring
     
  10. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Sportalluring, Thanks.
     
  11. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Well this is from the Trapshooting Hall of Fame.

    "The American Amateur Trapshooting Association (AATA, 1916-1919) formed with John Philip Sousa as president. This was the first attempt to have a national organization organized and run by amateurs. Sousa would serve as president again in 1918. This new association was the first attempt at amateur control and did not replace any other organization. It co-existed at the time with the Interstate Trapshooting Association"

    There is a lot more interesting reading on the site all one has to do is go there to see it. The information I posted above is from the page of the address I have posted above. It is all a good read.

    Bob Lawless
     
  12. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    BigBruno,,,,It was supposed to be '1900' according to the ATA link,,,,fat fingers,,,,oops
     
  13. StonewallRacing

    StonewallRacing Well-Known Member

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    So the Sousaphone inventor was a shooter?

    SW
     
  14. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    SW - Yes!
     
  15. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    StonewallRacing

    The Ithaca 4E, series single barrel trap guns were the top end guns at the begining of the last century and the "Sousa" Grade of this gun was a site to behold. If you ever see one, you will be in awe of it for something 100 years old. Of course you can guess who they named it after.
     
  16. KennyRay

    KennyRay Active Member

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    The earliest national trapshooting organization I've found was actually the National Gun Association.

    In 1883, J. E. Bloom, president of the Ligowsky Clay Pigeon Company suggested in a letter to sporting journals, that advantage should be taken at the upcoming First International Clay Pigeon Tournament (May 1884) in Chicago, to organize a National Sportsmen's Association.

    On Thursday, May 29, 1884 (one of the tournament days)sportsmen in attendance met at the Palmer House to draw up a constitution and by-laws. A committed for this purpose was chosen: J. E. Bloom, Cincinnati, OH; E. A. Crawford, Tallahassee, FL; J. O. Mills, Washington, DC; R. B. Organ, Chicago, IL; Mr. Watkins, Nashville, TN; W. S. Perry, Worcester, MA; C. P. Richards, Du Quoin, IL.

    The committee deferred the work until the next annual meeting which took place February 1885, in New Orleans. This is the one referred to for the past century as the first Internationl Clay Pigeon Tournament but was actually the second.
    The National Gun Association, which was duly organized at New Orleans Feb. 10th, ’85, to be incorporated in the State of Kentucky in March, when permanent officers would also be elected.

    The National Gun Association held their first interstate tournament in Springfield, OH, (May 5-9). Individual handicap rules were enforced here for the first time with decided dissatisfaction, and the association at its meeting abolished the rules for future tournaments and fixed the maximum at 18 instead of 20 yards. Directors also established the A, B & C class for shooters, accordingy to ability. It was also decided that the next International tournament would be held in Boston, on July 4, 1886.
     
  17. shotgunpeople

    shotgunpeople Active Member

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    1923: The Amateur Trapshooting Association (ATA, 1923-present) was organized to replace the American Trapshooting Association. For the first time, trapshooting was run and organized by amateurs. The first Grand American under this new association was in Chicago, the final year it would moved yearly. (Credit: Trapshooting HOF)

    In answer to the original question..."ATA" was founded 1923

    I believe 25 yards was the maximum also (Please correct me if I'm wrong)

    Dave
     
  18. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Shotgunpeople

    The article I was quoting in TrapshootingUSA, referred to the start in 1915 as the American Amateur Trapshooting Association. I erred in referring to it as ATA. Perhaps I should have said AATA? The article stopped at the 1915 date and did not go into any more detail.
     
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