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Need an opinion on rule

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Clay Target SSE, Feb 9, 2010.

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  1. Clay Target SSE

    Clay Target SSE Active Member

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    Did you shoot at the target? Was your gun mounted? If both questions are no, I think it should have been a "no target" call.

    JP
     
  2. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    According to the rules, it's a lost target, but it is seldom enforced that strictly.
     
  3. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    If you didn't call for the target when it was actually thrown then it is a no target. If your were calling 'pull' as a test and the target was thrown then I suppose you could get a failure to fire but it wouldn't be a lost target. In those conditions though I doubt anybody on the line would think of it as anything other than no target.
     
  4. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Setterman

    If this was an ATA shoot would you and anyone else that feels that it "Lost" please explain to me under which one of these rules it falls? As I see no rule violation in his statement.

    C. LOST TARGET

    The referee/scorer shall rule, “LOST”:
    1. When the contestant fires and fails to break the target whether
    missed completely or when only dust falls from it. A “Dusted Target,”
    is a target from which there is a puff of dust, but no perceptible piece
    is seen; it is not a dead target; or
    30

    2. When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant’s
    recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the
    contestant voluntarily does not fire; or

    3. When an illegal target, a freak target, or a target of a markedly
    different color is fired at and missed. A contestant may refuse illegal,
    freak or off-colored targets, but if he/she fires at the target the result
    must be scored; or

    4. When a contestant voluntarily withdraws from, or is otherwise
    disqualified, and takes no further part in a sub-event after having fired at
    1 or more targets of a sub-event and does not fire at all the targets in the
    sub-event, the referee/scorer shall rule all targets not fired upon “LOST”
    targets and they shall be scored and reported accordingly. When the
    shooter is prevented by reasons beyond his/her control from completing
    a sub-event, the scores for that partial sub-event shall not be recorded
    or reported. Example: shooters have shot 61 targets of a 100-target
    event when a storm permanently stops shooting. The management
    should report the scores for the first 50 targets only; or

    5. When a score sheet is delivered to the office with one or more targets
    that are not properly scored either “DEAD” or “LOST,” they shall be
    scored as “LOST” targets by shoot management; or

    6. When a contestant deliberately fires at the same target twice in
    Doubles Events. This rule is not applicable to a gun “doubling” or
    “machine-gunning”, see Rule VII, D., 3.; or

    7. When a commonly called “soft load” occurs, and the shot is fired
    but no part of the over powder wad or shot remains in the barrel and
    the target is missed. A soft load where the over powder wad or shot
    remain in the barrel shall be deemed a “Failure to Fire” and the “Failure
    to Fire” Rules apply.

    Bob Lawless
     
  5. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    It is not a lost target. I don't understand why all of you guys get so excited to call "lost target" all the time.

    The guy's gun was not mounted, probably broken open (but that's just a guess), and he did not call for the target. Everyone on the squad and the scorer should have been aware of the snow situation and that he was touching the speaker. I can't imagine how you determine he was calling for the target when his gun is down in one hand and he is touching the speaker with his other hand!

    Since there was a delay caused by the repeated malfunctions, he is entitled to see a legal target before he shoots again.
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The key to this question is that JT did not fire at the bird, or at least his gun did not go off. This makes the bird a "no target". If his gun would have gone off while the bird was in the air, a strict following of the rules would require a lost target. His gun position, mounted or unmounted, is not relevant.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. Fireball

    Fireball Member

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    Sounds more like the scorer was "LOST".
     
  8. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    He said he called for the bird 4 times, then without advising the scorer he was clearing the mic when a bird was launched. I did not see the statement that he had lowered his gun to clear the mic, and obviously the scorer didn't see it either.
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    It's not lost. However else you want to work it out will probably be fine; just don't score it lost. Somewhere, lurking behind all the text of the rulebook is the idea that people will use their heads and try to come up with a fair decision. If people won't do that, the rulebook won't help them.

    Neil
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    As Pat said whether the gun was lowered is irrelevant. The gun did not go off while the target was in the air. It is a "No Target"

    Also whether he advised the scorer or not or whether he call 4 time or 50 times there was no shot taken so how could he have missed?

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    That Is clearly NO TARGET .Jerry
     
  12. pheasantmaster

    pheasantmaster Well-Known Member

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    Setterman, you wrote the following,

    He said he called for the bird 4 times, then without advising the scorer he was clearing the mic a bird was launched. I did not see the statement that he had lowered his gun to clear the mic, and obviously the scorer didn't see it either.

    First why would calling for the target four times before one is finally launched reagardless of wether the gun was mounted have anything to do with target scored inquestion? He stated that no target was called for while he was clearing the mic and as such regardless of wether gun was mounted or not he was not obligated to shoot.
     
  13. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Previous FTF?? Maybe I'm giving the scorer to much credit? Where was this shoot? an ATA or small meat shoot? We often don't get to hear the entire story.
    Was anyone else there?
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Personally if it had been me before I ever called four times without getting a target I would have had the scorer check the machine by pushing the button. If that work I would have requested checking the connectors on the call box and speaker.

    Which is something the scorer should have done on there own before it ever came to four no targets.

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    no target
     
  16. Jeff P

    Jeff P Well-Known Member

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    I like Neil's take on it....

    As president in Alaska...I often get cornered at a shoot to make the call on whatever crazy thing is going on at that moment.

    I'll be the first one to say I don't know "all" the rules, and I'll be the first one to say I SHOULD know them cold.

    I always try to use my head and give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter - give him the best chance to break a good score.

    Sounds like a no target to me. And I'll go out on a limb and say that, confronted with what I know here that EVEN IF he had two previous failures to fire (for whatever reason) that I would still call this a 'no target' versus lost - if he's clearing snow out of the mic with one hand, it would be awfully difficult to have the gun mounted or even see how he might have intended to shoot at it.
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    And I like Jeff's take on it as well. A rulebook will never cover every case; fairness and thought will fill in the blanks.

    Neil
     
  18. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    There should be not debate Shawn gave you the rule and the correct answer.

    Don
     
  19. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    No Call - No Target. Period.
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Barry- Calling or not calling for the target is not important. If you do not call for a target, and one appears and you shoot, the target is scored. If you do not shoot, it is no target. Shooting the gun or not shooting the gun is the key.

    Pat Ireland
     
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