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Need advice for SCTP training

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by OhioBob, Mar 26, 2007.

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  1. OhioBob

    OhioBob TS Member

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    I am involved with our local SCTP program here. Our team has 40-45 youths and at least 10 experienced adult shooters as coaches and advisors. We have a training regimen pretty well established for the youths that have at least fired a shotgun before whether hunters or casual shooters.

    The problem we are having is with the first time shooters altogether. Sometimes they are from a hunting family, but Dad just hasn't had them out very much or spent much time with a gun.

    We start obviously with all the safety issues (1 week) and checking for eye dominance as well as familiarity with the gun operation itself. Gun fit and low recoil shells are a priority as well. Sooner or later you have to put a loaded weapon into their hands and allow them to shoot it. We start by letting them shoot at a locked target from posts 2-3-4. This seems to work well for about 90% of the shooters and they "graduate" in time to the next trap with oscillating targets after building confidence in hitting targets.

    My style as a teacher is to establish a sound shooting stance first without being too detailed. They can only absorb so much information at once. I work on foot position only to the point of insuring they don't tip over backwards from the recoil. Correct gun mount, fit and proper head placement on the stock is emphasized.

    Our problem is with about 10% of the youths that seem to have the exact same problem. They start out with a call for the target that is immediately followed with a pull of the trigger as soon as they see the target emerge from the house. Virtually little to no gun movement at all. They are keeping their heads on the stock, it's almost as if their reactions are so fast to send the message to the finger to pull the trigger WAY TOO SOON. Once in a great while they will bump into one and of course they really smoke it. This seems at least subconsciously to reinforce their method.

    Myself and 2 other shooters have been working with these "rapid fire" novices and are delivering consistent messages so as not to overload or confuse them. We just can't seem to slow them down. We have tried suggesting that they "paint" the path to the target slowly with the barrel of the gun, we have asked them to let the target go "way out there" before they pull the trigger.

    Yesterday on 2 occasions we stopped them for a rest and had them observe one of our second year shooters who has particularly excellent shooting form as a young man. He swings very smooth, surely and deliberate with no flashiness or quirks to his stlye. He is a virtual model of good trapshooting form. We asked our students to NOT watch the target, but instead to watch closely the shooter's smooth swing and gun movement.

    I'm not ready to give up on these young shooters, I don't want them to go away or quit discouraged. We must have stood with several of the youths for 75-100 shots yesterday, one coach per shooter, even trading off between us to eliminate any possible difference in coaching styles or personality. We are talking 5-10 hits on average out of the 75 or more shots.

    We also have them on the furthest most trapfield to eliminate any "peer pressure" effects from the other youths. I continue to reinforce how much I struggled/worked when I began the sport, and that always seems to elicit a sympathetic smile from my student. They are, for the time being, still enthusiastic and eager to learn, just having trouble breaking a "bad habit"

    I sometimes think about the influence and popularity of some of the video games out there and wonder whether this has led to the "pull and blast" effect we are witnessing?

    We have a LOT of patience collectively and want to insure a positive experience for these youths along with some modest measure of success.

    Does anyone have some constructive advice to deal with these "speed enhanced" youths?

    Bob T
     
  2. cecritz

    cecritz Member

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    We have 1st time kids in Our SCTP Program also E-mail me And ill send you my Phone # it will Be easier to explain some ways that might help Charlie
     
  3. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Have you thought about the over to the skeet field?

    Are you using a voice of manual call?

    Slow them down and make them wait for the bird by using the button with a slight delay on the bird.

    Slow them down and make them wait for the bird by teaching them to shoot from the low gun on a delayed bird.

    BTW ... some just will never get it and will frustrate you more than they get frustrated themselves.
     
  4. tallengnr

    tallengnr TS Member

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    I learned a great deal about my shooting style when I was videotaped. What I "thought" I was doing with my body/gun movement versus what the video tape showed were two entirely different things! Put a video camera on them and also video a shooter with good shooting style and maybe the light bulb will go on?
     
  5. tad houston

    tad houston TS Member

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    I agree with lumper. Have you tried just relieving them of the burden of “calling for the bird” and instead just have them set up and wait for the bird to fly on it's own (you pull)? It would be interesting to see if this would in any way change their "triggered" response.
     
  6. hoser

    hoser Member

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    This works:

    Have them dry fire at 25-50 targets. That is a surefire way to get any new trapshooter to achieve better timing. It also reveals other movement that is masked by a recoiling gun.

    It seems like a waste of time to the kids but it's actually more efficient to watch them dryfire as you will detect incorrect moves right away...and you'll notice after 4-5 "shots" they settle down, breathe easier and relax and then they can see where the gun was when they pulled the trigger. They'll also be able to tell you when they would have missed and by how much.

    It's worth more to dryfire 25 targets than to shoot at 25 with a new student.

    Also, get a Terry Jordan wall chart. A beautiful tool for grooving the moves and trigger timing.

    It works.
     
  7. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    I agree with hoser.........take the gun out of their hands and make them watch the target flight. They can mount the gun, call for the bird and track it with their eyes and dryfire just before it crests. the kids will be amazed at how long the bird is in the air in a "hittable" position before it starts to fall. they are not unlike most new shooters who take the shot too soon, then again, i've seen a number of newbies who let it stay out there an awful long time, mostly trying to aim the gun. teaching your brain how to recognize the correct amount of time from launch to crest is a repetitive exercise. the kids can learn it, they just need to see enough targets and not shoot at all of them. a dryfire drill with a full squad for one round of birds should do it, let all of them dryfire at each bird, all five at once. then let them shoot a real round and tell them to see the target before they shoot. if they've got good fundamentals they'll take off pretty quick.

    another good way to make them wait to take the shot is to let them shoot annie oakleys or custers from 16 yards or let them shoot big chip or doo-dahs.
     
  8. Shootertoo

    Shootertoo TS Member

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    Bob,send me your phone number by e-mail or I`ll give you my by E-mail.I coach here in ohio too. I`ve been doing this for 6 years. I have some tips that may help. But it`s safe to say there is no quick fix. after all there kids and there all differnt.
     
  9. Colonel Reb

    Colonel Reb TS Member

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    OhioBob I am a coach and I have athletes doing the same thing. It doesn't help when you've got trapshooters who mean well but don't know what the kids are struggling with walking by and saying "Shoot as soon as you see it" when that is exactly why the athlete is shooting 0 out of 25. Neither I nor other coaches I have asked to help have been able to make any headway. But I know what you are saying. As soon as the bird comes out, the athlete shoots, and there is no movement of the barrel other than muzzle jump after the shot, thus there is no way the athlete could have swung the gun to the target and made any kind of bird-barrel alignment. Almost like they expect the gun to do everything for them.

    Shotgunning can be difficult. I'm not very good myself. It is far more frustrating than shooting rifles and pistols, so it sounds like you have a good program going as far as starting them out. Some people, though, just have better hand-eye coordination than others. For instance, Tom Knapp could probably break 25 out of 25 on a trap field before he even knew who Herb Parsons was, and then you've got people who have spent lots of money on P or K guns and pro training and still are not very good.
     
  10. clayman51

    clayman51 Member

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    BOB,

    Once you have the kids in the proper shooting stance you can work on the timing issue. The best way to do this is through a dryfire exercise. This gets them into the correct timing or proper move to the target. A couple of rounds is the best way to achive this. If there still remains a proplem you can stand behind the shooter and have them move to the target, but only shoot when you give the command.I usually count and have them fire when, lets say I hit 2 or 3 this helps in building timing.

    good luck, sounds like you have a good program

    Dennis
     
  11. OhioBob

    OhioBob TS Member

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    Dennis and others....

    It's great to get some ideas, I'm grateful for all the responses.

    I just got off the phone with Matt and he echoed your thoughts on waiting for my command to shoot...he suggested a light tap on the shoulder after the bird has got out there a considerable distance to encourage them to move the gun. I can't wait to try these suggestions.

    Matt tells me he doesn't like to type, so I will try my best to repeat one of his other thoughts. He suggested a little friendly talk about school, other sports etc between shots to lighten the burden and relax the students.

    I'm also going to take my video camera next week as others have said and tape them while dry firing and shooting. I won't discount anything at this point.

    If we can slow them down then I think we will try the skeet low house 7 to build some confidence.

    Great ideas all!!!

    Bob T
     
  12. tachyon

    tachyon Member

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    OhioBob, I coach an all girls team (the high school is for girls only). Of the 15 or so we get new each year most have never held a gun before. Your first post could serve as a blueprint for how to introduce new shooters to the sport. Our program is very similar and built over a few years of trial and error.

    We also use dryfire for those who are snap shooting. Sometimes we start them without a gun and just have them follow the target with their finger. In addition, we will have them stand next to an experienced shooter with their gun unloaded. The mount the gun, call pull, then follow the target with their gun. The experienced shooter actually shoots the target. Some learn a better rythm from this exercise. We ask them to try to pull their trigger at the same time as the experienced shooter.

    Some students learn via video some do not. If you tape them try from the side and focus only on the shooter and the gun. Ignore the target. For some the gun will not even move between pull and bang. That helps some shooters learn that they are shooting on the first movement they perceive. This helps them learn to wait.

    Bruce
     
  13. mdk3280

    mdk3280 TS Member

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    Take a look at Trap Tutor...this pc-based training aide can help you "burn in" the proper gun move to acquire any target from all 5 posts. It also lets you train them on where to "look" for targets from all 5 posts.

    I've used it with many SCTP kids and it helps the novices and the experienced shooters as well.

    www.traptutor.com

    Best,
    Dan
     
  14. OhioBob

    OhioBob TS Member

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    Thanks Bruce and Dan...some more methods to try....surely something is gonna work.

    Bob
     
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