1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

MY TAKE ON CHOKES AND PATTERNS

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by E. Beaver, Nov 11, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. E. Beaver

    E. Beaver Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2007
    Messages:
    801
    My Take on Chokes and Patterns



    For a long time I have been interested in what the patterns looked like at different distances and what effect the choke and ammunition had. After much trial and error and a good amount of reading I got some very good insight at www.shotgunreport.com. The author there explained that there were insufficient pellets to properly fill a 30” circle and that we should look at a 24” circle instead for evaluating pellet density. He also outlined the following math.

    The math goes like this: In a 24” circle there are 452 sq. in., if we allow that an oblique target represents 5 sq. in. then 452 divided by 5 equals 90 same size target spaces in the 24” circle. Let’s also say that we want at least 3 hits per target to ensure that it breaks. Therefore 3 times 90 equals 270 pellets. The 270 pellets represent the ideal number of pellets in that 24” circle. If you have way more that 270 in means that they are clustered in the center leaving the outer edges too thin, and if you have way less your pattern is too thin overall.

    I used a Remington SPR310s with Turlock chokes. My load was: Remington Nitro hulls, Cheditde primer, 17.0 grains of Promo, Claybuster wad and 1 1/8 of hard shot. This load patterned equal or better than factory Remington STS in 8’s and Remington Nitro 7 ½’s.

    I have shot about 100 separate paper targets with #8 and # 7 ½’s and counted the number of hits in a 24” circle. The following is the average number of hits for 3 targets per choke, shot size and yardage. Please pay attention to the letters following the number of hits where A indicates no holes in any of the 3 targets, A- indicates 1 hole, B+ indicates 2 holes, B indicates 3 holes, B- indicates 4 holes and C+ indicates 5 holes.

    #8 shot:

    L Mod, .015 constriction, 25 yds 375 hits A-, 30 yds 278 hits C+, 35 yds 235 hits C+

    Mod, .020 constriction, 30 yds, 374 hits A, 35 yds, 328 hits A-, 40 yds 224 hits C-

    Full, .030 constriction, 35 yds 323 hits A-, 40 yds 274 hits B+, 45 yds 212 hits B

    E Full, .040 constriction, 35 yds 334 hits B, 40 yds 314 hits B+, 45 yds 242 B

    #7 ½ shot:

    L Mod, .015 constriction, 25 yds 355 hits A-, 30 yds 295 hits B, 35 yds 263 hits A-

    Mod, .020 constriction, 30 yds 337 hits B, 35 yds 270 hits A-, 40 yds 226 hits B+


    Full .030 constriction, 35 yds 308 hits A, 40 yds 248 hits A, 45 yds 209 hits B+

    E Full .040 constriction, 35 yds 332 hits A-, 40 yds 281 hits A, 45 yds 239 hits A-


    By graphing (not shown) the above results for 7 ½’s we were able to determine the yardage at which there were 270 pellets in the 24” circle. That yardage was: for L Mod 33.5 yards, for Mod 35 yards, for Full 38 yards and for Extra Full 41 yards.

    This information can be looked at in many different ways: Fast shooters will want a more open choke whereas a slow shooter may find a tighter choke works best for them. It all boils down to what works for you. Be aware that this data hold for my gun, my chokes and my ammo, your pattern may very.

    It is interesting to note that there are 4 “A’s” using #8s, and 9 “A’s” using 7 ½’s. And at the longest range tested for each choke there are more or nearly an identical number of hits of 7 ½’s V.S. 8’s even though there are about 60 more #8’s to start with. The 7 ½’s hold a better pattern than the 8’s, plus there is more energy pre pellet with the 7 ½’s.

    My recommendations for myself are:

    First quick shot in doubles, 25-35 yards, L Mod choke, 7 ½ best, 8 ok.

    First shot in doubles or quick singles, 30-35 yards, Mod choke, 7 ½ or 8’s.

    Singles, short HC or quick 2nd shot in doubles, 35-40 yards, Full choke, 7 ½ best, 8 ok.

    Mid to long HC or long 2nd shot in doubles, 35-45 yards, E Full choke, 7 ½
     
  2. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,463
    "Different sweep speeds will change the results considerably."


    By that, do you mean that you can change the pattern by how fast you swing your gun? If you answer "yes", then you are telling us you can "sling" the shot by moving the muzzle quickly??????? I don't think so.
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    E. Beaver- Your analysis is based on a uniform distribution of shot in a pattern but shotgun patterns have a random distribution of shot.

    irfner- You can cause the pattern to elongate by moving the gun barrel as long as you are moving the barrel faster than the speed that the shot leaves the end of the barrel. I will sometimes shoot rather fast but I can't move my barrel at 1200 ft/sec.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. tcr1146

    tcr1146 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,216
    Some of you guys scare the hell out of me! What is even scarier, you believe that garbage you put on here! Tom Rhoads
     
  5. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,463
    Yes, I've shot pattern paper while moving my barrel pretty fast. All that changed was the POI, not the shape of the pattern itself.

    It doesn't matter how long the barrel is or how fast you swing it. All the pellets are coming out the end of the barrel at the same time in the shotcup.
     
  6. Dove Commander

    Dove Commander TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,364
    Geeze guys, give Mr.Beaver a break. He spent alot of time putting that info together. Remember, there are alot of shots that don't require much lead. His info may be more important than you think. Tight cores (24" @ 40 yds)are usually good loads on handicap.
     
  7. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,463
    Mr. E. Beaver,

    Would the "E" happen to stand for "Eager"? Pardon the joke. :)


    I've read your information posted above. It's somewhat interesting, but doesn't really tell us much that we didn't know. Basically, it tells us that the more pellets in a particular portion of a pattern, the better chance we have of breaking a target with that portion of the pattern (assuming sufficient energy per pellet of course).

    That is not really earth shattering information. Besides, even as indisputable as that postulate would seem to be, your own data contradicts it in several instances. For instance, your Mod choke using 7.5's at 30 yards puts 337 pellets in the 24" circle and rates a "B" (indicating 3 holes in the pattern), while the same choke and load at 35 yards puts only 270 pellets in the 24" circle and yet it rates an "A-" (indicating only 1 hole in the pattern). From that, we might conclude that fewer pellets are better....... but I think that would be a bad assumption.

    Actually, what I think you need to do is shoot about 100 shots of each choke and load at each distance and get back to us with the results. Good luck.
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,864
    E. Beaver, I don't understand your holes/grading system. What holes?

    Infer, you can't spread a pattern by swinging the gun at any reasonable speed. Maybe you can supply the match that makes you think it's possible.

    Neil
     
  9. E. Beaver

    E. Beaver Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2007
    Messages:
    801
    Dear Easystreet:

    The Mod choke at 30 yards had 337 pellets in the 24" circle indicating that the pellets were bunched towards the center leaving the firge light with holes big enough to let a target slip through.

    With 270 pellets at 35 yards the center core has spread out giving an overall better pattern with fewer holes.
     
  10. E. Beaver

    E. Beaver Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2007
    Messages:
    801
    Neil Winston:

    The holes I referred to are spaces without pellet hits that are large enough to allow a target to pass thru without getting hit.

    Perhaps "spaces" would have been a better choice of words than holes as the pellets make holes which I see now could be confusing.

    The grading system goes like this: Lets say I have shot three paper targets at one distance, choke and shot size and there are no spaces that would allow a clay target to pass withou getting hit, then that group of 3 paper targets would rate an A. If there was one paper target with one space then that group of 3 targets would rate an A-. and so on.

    Next time around I'll be more explicit and refer to paper targets, clay targets, and spaces to make things clearer. Thanks for your interest.
     
  11. E. Beaver

    E. Beaver Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2007
    Messages:
    801
    Pat Ireland:

    Good point, patterns are random but I had to start somewhere. I realize that I'm just looking at 2 dimensions where trap shooting is a multi dimension process. My intention was to learn of the best starting point with shot sizes,chokes and yardages. I found that #7.5 shot performed for me better than #8. That in itself was a key finding for me.
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    E. Beaver- When working with different loads, chokes and patterns all I think I accomplished was to raise many more questions in my mind than answers. Once, I was even at the point of roughly measuring the shot size between two pieces of flat glass (do not always trust what is stamped on the outside of a bag) and counting the number of shot I loaded in a test shell. My wife walked by one day while I was doing that and concluded "that is dumb". I quickly agreed and just concluded to shoot #8 for singles and doubles and #7.5 for handicap.

    My decision was not based on sound data because all of my sound data did not lead to any conclusions.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,463
    Irfner,

    There are two things you should know.

    1. The 12 foot shot string was not due to someone "slinging" shot out of the end of the barrel. It was due to natural forces of wind resistance and the fact that not all the pellets are perfectly round or exactly the same size.

    2. A bird flying 40 mph is NOT going to fly into the SIDE of a shot string going 700 mph. The ENTIRE 12 foot length of the shot string will have passed the bird in the time that it takes the bird to move less than 9 inches. The final 4 feet of the shot string will pass in the time it takes the bird to move less than 3 inches. So how is a bird going to fly into a pattern that is perhaps 40 inches across and moving at 700 mph if the bird moves only 3 inches?


    But don't let the facts get in the way of what you believe. LOL
     
  14. magnumthunder

    magnumthunder Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    82
    Are you saying I should shoot a Mod over a full choke at 35 yds.?

    Mod, .020 constriction, 30 yds, 374 hits A, 35 yds, 328 hits A-, 40 yds 224 hits C-

    Full, .030 constriction, 35 yds 323 hits A-, 40 yds 274 hits B+, 45 yds 212 hits B


    I'll have more pellets in the circle. Yet both receive an A-. Over grading for the full or under grading for the Mod. What would an IM choke give me? Sorry but it don't seem right to me.
     
  15. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,334
    Location:
    Shawnee, Kansas, USA
    "But of course there can be no horizontal or vertical distortion of the pattern imparted by the movement of the gun. Or of the shot as it leaves a moving wad. Of course not. You are absolutely correct. And I will stop these foolish thoughts immediately."

    First intelligent thing you've posted in this thread.

    It takes less than 0.005 seconds for the wad to accellerate from zero to muzzle velocity in your gun. In that time, your gun, even if you're swinging it wildly, will move only fractions of an inch.

    Shot goes straight (horizontally) and follows a wind resisted ballistic trajectory (vertically.) It doesn't curve like water from a hose. It just doesn't.

    Do you also believe that you can impart a flat spin on a rifle bullet by swinging the rifle as you shoot it. Does that sound plausible? (it certainly isn't plausible, even if it sounds so.)
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,864
    ...and water doesn't curve from a hose either.

    Neil
     
  17. Roger IL

    Roger IL TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    323
    ........and winter isn't here yet......Roger
     
  18. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,334
    Location:
    Shawnee, Kansas, USA
    Neil,

    You're right. It just appears to.
     
  19. E. Beaver

    E. Beaver Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2007
    Messages:
    801
    Dear Mr Magnumthunder:

    It appears that at 35 yards and using #8 shot that it makes no significant difference for me weather I use Mod of Full chokes as both are nearly equal with Mod having 328A- hits and Full having 323A- hits. Be aware at 40 yards they are not nearly the same with Mod having 224C+ and Full having 274B+. What I'm getting at is that if you are a little late in pulling the trigger when your normal range is 35 yards you may be closer to 40 yards and then the Full choke would be an advantage.

    I did test the I Mod choke but found that with #8 shot it behaved much like my Full choke. With #7 1/2 it behaved like a Mod at 30 yards, a Full at 35 yards and back to a Mod at 40 yards. I no longer use my I Mod choke. I measured all my chokes and they were within plus or minus 0.001".
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,864
    E. Beaver, then I take it your "hole" template is about 1x4 inches? Next question: How consistent is that metric? When I did hand counting, hundreds and hundreds of them as you have, I was still under Oberfell and Thompson's influence (for a while) and counted their "holes." But it never repeated, that is, this pattern would have two holes, that one none, over there three. Does your system work any better?

    Have you tried any of that "central thickening" calculation? That never repeated for me either.

    Neil
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.