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Muzzle is dipping when I call....

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by dynapro, Apr 30, 2008.

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  1. dynapro

    dynapro TS Member

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    A friend & former State Champ was watching me shoot handicap from behind today. Right behind for about two or three stations. And I didn't know he was there so I was just shooting as always. I was shooting pretty good so I was surprised to learn that I consistantly drop the barrel when I call for the target.

    That sounds to me like a terrible defect to have in a shooting form. (frown).

    What would be the most likely cause for doing something like that?
     
  2. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I've seen some trapshooters just make grunt sounds or other noises without moving their mouths. I figure either they're oddballs or they've figured out this affects their gun hold and cheekweld less.
     
  3. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    I have seen folks put so much effort into their call that it causes them to dip their muzzle.

    Go somewhere you can make funny noises with an unloaded gun and not get the loony squad called on you, and come up with a gradual call while making a project out of freezing the muzzle until your call is completed.

    If you are holding the gun too high, you might be subconciously dipping the gun in an effort to see the bird. If this is the case, holding the muzzle at the far end of the trap roof and focusing on something distant over your barrel might help.

    A lot of folks do this. STOP IT. RIGHT NOW!!!
     
  4. dynapro

    dynapro TS Member

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    Ha! Thanks coach.

    I suppose I'm already at step one of the 12 step process. Learning that it's going on was a revelation. I suppose it might be the actual call, but my friend said it might be me cinching my head down onto the stock, Brian called it trying to improve my "cheekweld". And I am wondering if I was doing something crazy with my forend grip at that moment, like tensing up and clamping into a death grip. ...

    Like I said, a 12 step process, of figuring, and then fixing.
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I have copied and pasted a very important comment from shooting coach.

    "A lot of folks do this. STOP IT. RIGHT NOW!!!"

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Ray S. does it; it can't be hurting his shooting much.

    Neil
     
  7. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    I think the Coach and Larry have it pegged. I occasionally shoot with a fellow who holds an unbelievably high gun but dips his muzzle at least six inches when he calls for a target and says he doesn't even realize he's doing it. But apparently his brain knows it can't see as well with the gun in the way and wants it moved.

    A few other local shooters "dip" to a lesser degree and shoot well in spite of it. Without exception, they all hold a high gun - could there be a message there?

    I've only watched Ray Stafford shoot on a couple of occasions and I forget what his hold point looks like but I don't think it's real high, so he might be an exception.

    Ed
     
  8. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Besides Stafford being a gun dipper former All American great Roger Smith was and at times a "big dipper".
     
  9. dynapro

    dynapro TS Member

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    Pat -- The problem MAY be as easy to fix as: "STOP IT. RIGHT NOW!!!"


    (Smile - I like that comment, -- it startled me, like a slap in the face, stop crying, you big baby, ha, ha).

    but.... the analytical part of my brain wants to understand what is triggering this subconscious reaction to a target throw. After thinking about the comments, I do believe that it is visual and not mechanical, (mechanics - meaning forearm squeeze, call-style, or cheekweld.) The DIP is probably related to both holding a high gun and trying to make a fast move to the bird. That has always been my shooting style and I'm working on it harder this year than I ever have before.

    I like it,.... but I will say that my "style" is regularly commented on,... and the comments seem like veiled criticism. Almost word-for-word what Larry said: You have much more time to get to the target than you are using.

    High holds and fast shooting seem desireable to me 1). Because that is the way most Pro's seem to shoot and 2). That method keeps me engaged in the event and "on point" / enthusiastic, because if I slow down and relax I get lacksidasical and start getting "beat" by those low and inside fast balls...
     
  10. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Just a thought; the muzzle is going to go where we are looking - we hear this often relating to chasing a bird but could it be that people who bead check before their call and then dropping the eyes to where they expect the bird to appear as they call might cause dipping of the barrel due to the eye movement? Were I suffering from this dilemma, I'd consider that possibility....breakemall....Bob Dodd
     
  11. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    A friend of mine is a one eyed shooter and is AA 27 AA and he dips his barrel down everytime as part of his routine. I asked him about it and he said he can see the targets better because he uses one eye. I took a clinic from Daro Handy and he recommended for me to speed up my "Set Up Ritual" with a smooth timed gun mount and only a very slight pause before calling for the target so as Not to "Get Stuck in the Starting Blocks".
     
  12. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    If you are breaking the birds, I wouldn't worry about it to much.

    Hauxfan!
     
  13. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    The real question is, is it costing you birds? It doesn't much matter what you do as long as you can do it 100 times in a row successfully. Now, if you watch most really good shooters, you will note that they generally have reduced their pre-shot routine and shooting motion to the bare minimums. This simplification allows them to replicate these much more easily and consistantly.

    OTOH, watch average shooters and you will be amazed at the added strokes that they go through to shoot a target. Each unecessary movement is an opportunity for error in motion and timing.

    It is easy to hit Middle C 100 straight times, not so easy to play a concerto 100 straight times.

    If you can dip the gun 100 straight times and it doesn't effect your timing to the target, don't worry about it. You have discovered your own style. If it is costing you targets, STOP IT RIGHT NOW!
     
  14. jbbor

    jbbor Active Member

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    Roger was an "excessive" gun dipper. Maybe that was the reason he couldn't shoot. Ray is also one of those "oddball" grunters. Must be hurting his performance too. Jimmy Borum
     
  15. dynapro

    dynapro TS Member

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    No, ... myself, being a Type A personality, I cannot just let anything "go" saying that it is good enough. I wish I could, but now that I have been labeled as a muzzle dipper, I am in trouble. Ray Stafford can possibly do this, but then again, he is Ray Stafford. If he does a certain thing, it is because he intends to for a reason,... it is not "on accident."

    Since the cause is visual, I looked up a discussion we had a few months ago. Maybe this is part of the problem. Les Greevy calls it the Quiet Eye.

    Les says: "Here’s what it is and how you develop it."

    The Quiet Eye occurs when your gaze remains absolutely still at the target pick-up point just before and as the target is called for and the gun move is initiated. There are two important aspects of this basic yet essential skill: location and duration.

    Concerning location, the shooter must determine his target pick-up point (look point) with precision. It must be on the line of the target, and the look point must be identified with a very small feature in the background of the scene. Quiet Eye duration is also important. The expert shooters have a Quiet Eye duration of 2+ seconds on average, while less skilled shooters hold the gaze for less than one second.
     
  16. Mike Michalski

    Mike Michalski Member

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    I too have seen some very good shooters dip when calling. Possibly something like a forward press when starting a golf swing. I've also heard that it's preferable to continue a motion rather than starting from a static position when performing an athletic move. Guess you've got to do what works for you.
     
  17. dynapro

    dynapro TS Member

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    Now that you mention it, I've seen shooters that had an intentional gun movement during the call as part of their timing or gun inertia. That has really gone out of style along with the Model 12's and Federal Papers, especially in trap. I still see many eccentric shooting techniques in skeet and sporting clays.

    So many of the great vintage "personalities" that would do these kinds of things have vanished. It used to be a whole nother ballgame in the old days. It's not bad now, just different.
     
  18. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    I was never aware that I was doing the same thing until I took a Harlan Camppbell Jr clinic. He had us dry fire on a Terry Jordan wall chart and without the gun going off it was very obvious. I bought a chart and used that to correct the problem.

    Your mileage may vary.

    Bob
     
  19. Steve NJ

    Steve NJ Member

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    Rich B. who is going into the NJ hall of fame this year was a big gun dipper. I'd dip my gun if could shoot like him!
     
  20. valmet

    valmet TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Many of you on here may remember a gentleman by the name of
    Bob Redfield from northern Mn. He shot and registered many,many,
    targets each yr. south in the winter,north in the summer.This
    guy was was a tough competitor wherever he went. before he called
    for the target, he'd make a couple of small circles with his
    muzzle, then call. I believe he aquired this trait from the military.
    don't remember what the reason for this was, but the man could sure
    shoot. Dennis
     
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