1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Mr. Winston's History - The REAL old days

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by franko, Mar 31, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. franko

    franko Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    144
    An interesting analysis, but 1978 is at least 10 years too late and and the study was restricted to two big shoots.

    By 1978, the idea that "throw 'em easy, everyone will shoot big scores, and come back" was well established. While the rule book may have required 3-hole, 50 yard targets, in practice, at least in Kansas, very few clubs actually obeyed the rules.

    For a better view of how things really were before the "throw 'em easy" craze took hold, I invite you to look at the tables showing high average shooters in the years 1957 to 1968. Page 62, 1968 Average book.

    I wish I had the technical expertise to copy and post the tables, but here is a summary.

    High Singles ranged from Dan Orlich's .9856 in 1957 to his .9982 in 1968 with all the others over .9900. Very little difference from today.

    High Doubles ranged from .9502 to .9715. More difference, but I think the change to "easy" doubles targets is even more pronounced than for handicap.

    High Handicap ranged from .9250 to .9441. The FIRST 27 yarder to appear in the top 8 scores for any year was Gene Sears with the .9441 in 1965, and in those 12 years only eight 27 yard shooters made the list, with Mr. Sears being the ONLY one to lead the averages.

    I'm sure improvements in shells and guns account for some of the difference between then and now, but I submit that the change to "easy targets", first by clubs that broke the rules and later by changing the rules accounts for most of the difference.

    Some will say that the only reason long yardage shooters did not dominate the handicap game then was because they were at the outer limits of gun-shell performance.

    If this is true, I say bring on lighter loads, more concrete AND 3 hole 50 yard targets.

    Folks, it was just a BETTER game in the good 'ol days.


    Frank O'Brien
     
  2. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,463
    Frank it is what it is and that is all it ever will be. The sport gets easier because as the sport gets older the older shooters get upset when they cannot break as many as they did many years ago so the ATA does what it needs to do to keep them shooting and they make the game easier. The younger crowd does not know how it was then so they do not realize how hard the game used to be but as they proceed to get older as well the game will evolve into an easier sport as well.

    Sooner or later we all will be shooting 25 center straight away floaters that hang in the air like they are being suspended on a wire while shooing from the comfort of a lazyboy lounger while siting on top of the trap house.

    It is what it is Frank and that it always be what it is so lets just go with the flow and be happy with the ease of the sport.
     
  3. tomk2

    tomk2 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    320
    How many things have changed since 1968? Just one thing? If more than one thing, how do you justify your single choice explanation?
     
  4. ebsurveyor

    ebsurveyor Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    950
    Location:
    PA
    The quality of ammo might be a factor pre AA's (around '65 I think).
     
  5. ArmyMechanic

    ArmyMechanic Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    192
    I realize the stats arent exactly showing much difference in the years compared... but does anyone think its a possibility that the shooters that are shooting for this long are just maybe staying more consistent??

    Most of the shooters i see around here, are the same shooters that are doing all the shooting, to me that would reason they are remaining consistent?

    just a thought (I suck either way...lol) so any thing helps when it comes to my shooting...
     
  6. Onceabum

    Onceabum TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Messages:
    860
    "It is what it is." Sounds a lot like what Lumper used to say. I like it.

    Booger
     
  7. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,707
    One of the biggest differences is that the top shooters are now shooting a lot more than shooters years ago and they shoot a lot more at the top levels of competition. Most of their scores are posted at big state shoots and the various Grands.
     
  8. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,970
    I started league shooting in 1961 and registered in 1964. I made reloads with Alcan Flitemax wads and Green Dot for $ .92 per box and the factory loads definitely had shot protecter plastic inserts at least. I shot and reloaded mostly Federal Papers in those days but Remington made Power Piston one piece plastic wads so I doubt that the target loads were much different in the old days. I remember yellow dome targets that were a lot harder to see than the all black targets.
     
  9. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,649
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    Alcan's quik-sert was, I believe the first shot protector. It wasn't very substantial and I can't say if it made a difference. the Power Piston was first with a one piece shot protecting wad, and the AA was right on it's heels.

    I believe that was a very major factor in better scores.

    Try 27 yards with cork wads and no shot protector and see the score.

    Easy targets came with a false promise of better club revenue, and a great many clubs threw them in a perception of self defense. We have chewed that cabbage several times in the last year.

    3 hole and one ounce would make a better game, but that's just my opinion.

    More concrete would constitute a hardship for many clubs, and would probably have a deleterious effect.

    Finally, if you want shooting to have good growth again fix the economy (not likely).

    HM
     
  10. berettagold53954

    berettagold53954 TS Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Messages:
    475
    it doesnt matter to me either way never shot 100 straight cant seem to shoot over 97 in caps but when your talking about the big dogs they shouldnt even be shooting for same trophy as us its the amateur trapshooting assoc when your shooting that many 100s teaching classes your considered a professional not amateur
     
  11. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Miketmx, I also started shooting in 1963 and remember loading 23grs. of Red Dot with an H wad and 2-3/8" filler wads in a Federal paper case. I also remember full choke pattern percentages of 70% were seldom achieved with those unprotected loads. The Mark V pellet protecting collar in Winchester paper shells of those days was their greatest achievement.

    In those days hard shot was probably not available to the reloader. I don't believe those Federal papers had any protection at all until the Pellet Protector wad became available. They sure smoked Singles though!!
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,229
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    The Winchester Mark 5 protective shot collar appeard first in the 50s. Later, the Win-Wad was made available to reloaders which was the forerunner to the AA12 wad.

    <a href="http://s142.photobucket.com/albums/r104/HapMecTweaks/?action=view&current=WinchesterTrophyShelf.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Here's a pic of a box of Mark-5 paper trap loads with the plastic shot protector.

    Hap
     
  13. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    760
    Location:
    Winterset, IA
    Hap,

    Very nice display of Winchester stuff, but what's with the "carona in a cage"?

    Tom
     
  14. wm rike

    wm rike Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    594
    Winchester's Mark V shot wrapper made its appearance in 1962. Their AA wad hit the market in '65. The Win-Wad came along in '63 but was not well accepted and in fact Winchester continued to load their target shells with the Mk V wrapper until the advent of the AA wad.
     
  15. hairy

    hairy TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    374
    It would be fun to pattern some of the old loads to see if they really are that much poorer than modern shells.

    Hap.....about that Corona?
     
  16. jbbor

    jbbor Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,036
    Deleted upon reflection. Not that I don't believe it, just reflection. Jimmy Borum
     
  17. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,463
    Mr Borum - the "P" is a little inappropriate to use. Maybe you could edit your message and use the term "CoochiePots" instead of the "P" word.
     
  18. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,229
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Aha,, the caged corona? That was my buddy's way of paying off our beer bet at Vandalia in 99! 76 to 75 on tough Rem. bluerocks. After winning it, I had to wait till I traveled to Ca. to claim my prize. Once I arrived in Ca., he waited till we were at the Atascadero gun club to "present" it to me! Everyone at the club got a big kick outa that presentation too!! It's one of my favorites forever and I cherish it and the friendship! :) Hap
     
  19. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,734
    hairy, there is a difference!
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Which of the following has been most important in improving scores: two hole targets, adjustable combs, automatic traps, voice release systems, brighter colored targets, improved ammunition, better quality or at least more choices in guns, more choices in lens colors (when I started the only lens colors available were gray and yellow), shooting clinics offered by top shots, better ear plugs (cotton was the only ear plug available when I started) or no alcohol drinking on the line or between events. Few shooters remember what shooting bags were used for many years ago.

    Some want to return to most of us shooting hand pulled and set targets with a M-12, cotton stuffed in our ears, yellow dome targets and yellow glasses and felt wads. The targets were set in the three hole if the setter got them on the arm correctly. If not they were around 6 hole targets. In a 100 target event you could expect about five slow pulls and one very sharp left hand target that would end up on the adjacent field and the shooter, who had been drinking, on the post next to you laughing about the wild target you missed.

    Giving the scorer a nice tip before each round seemed to get better pulls and higher scores in the good old days when our sport was so fine. A shooter who tipped the scorer seemed to get more very small pieces that only the scorer could see. Now, some complain about top shooters selecting the banks with the best background. Years ago, top shooters selected traps where specific scorers were working.

    We could get rid of the current problem of so many shooters shooting good scores if we just went back to the way it used to be done.

    Pat Ireland
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.