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MORE rules, Look See targets in doubles?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by NintyT, Sep 3, 2008.

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  1. NintyT

    NintyT Member

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    In recent months I've heard stories about a local shooter who often shoots lead off in doubles. He asks for the usual "Let's see a pair", before each sub event. No problem. But on later posts he calls pull without even mounting his gun, before shooting the first pair on that post. He's been called on it, but he thinks he's within the rules to do so. I'd like to set him straight, but so far I've not found a rule specific to this.

    Anyone have the answer? Steve J
     
  2. wdr-NY

    wdr-NY TS Member

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    Falls under mis-fire rule. He gets his two and then he should be getting losses for the pair after that.

    Walker
     
  3. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    No Walker - it would be a lost pair since he intentionally did not shoot at the legal targets. You can't use the failure-to-fire rule here. I assume that is what you were referring to by "mis-fire rule".

    To answer the original question - they are lost targets under VII.C.2
     
  4. wdr-NY

    wdr-NY TS Member

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    870,
    That sounds right. Do you have the rule handy for reference? I'd like to put it in my bag for future reference.

    Thanks for the clarification,

    Walker
     
  5. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    Straight from the rulebook pg 29. see number 2

    C. LOST TARGET
    The referee/scorer shall rule, “LOST”:


    1. When the contestant fires and fails to break the target whether
    missed completely or when only dust falls from it. A “Dusted Target,”
    is a target from which there is a puff of dust, but no perceptible piece
    is seen; it is not a dead target; or


    2. When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant’s
    recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the
    contestant voluntarily does not fire; or

    --- Chip King ---
     
  6. NintyT

    NintyT Member

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    Sounds good to me. The offender's argument is that he didn't have his gun to his shoulder and obviously wasn't intending on shooting at the target. Can he get around this rule by just tapping the voice release, or clearing his voice loudly enough to set off the trap. Then there would be no "recognizable command". We all know what he's doing though.
     
  7. Beretta687EELL

    Beretta687EELL Well-Known Member

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    It is up to shoot management to enforce the rule, as it is them that are paying for the extra targets that are being thrown. I suspect that this is why the rule is in place. If I recall correctly, PITA allows the lead-off shooter to see a pair on each station ... interesting. Others have tried tapping the mics and making enough noise to set off the pair. Again, shoot management could watch what is happening, make it clear to the shooter and the scorer that such behavior will result in a lost pair. Personally, I like to see a pair before I shoot them and that is why I almost never lead off for doubles. Bill Malcolm
     
  8. 1brucem

    1brucem TS Member

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    A good time to add my two cents. PTA allows the lead off man to see a pair at each change of stations. Why should ATA put the lead off man at the disadvantage of not seeing a pair like every other shooter does. If you think it doesn't place a disadvantage on the lead off shooter, just look at what post is always more available at sign up. Let the lead off shooter see a pair at each post just like the other shooters! Bruce
     
  9. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    Steven:

    Once a subevent has started, its only acceptable under ATA rules to look at an extra pair following a delay or to clear a trap after it's thrown a broken target or target debris. If your perp wants to see a pair after a move and before he shoots, he shouldn't be lead off.

    Of course, he can circumvent the rules by tapping the speaker stand, coughing loudly, or some similar shlt. However, if he's a repeat offender, I would advise shoot management of his foolishness, request they observe his squad, and act accordingly.

    One the other hand, if I were you, I'd use a tazer on his sorry self and be done with it. : )

    sissy

    Missed you at the Brittany last weekend. Were you at the Heartland?
     
  10. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    NintyT As Bill said it would be up to shoot management to decide what to do if he starts bumping the mike or coughing or anything else to get a pair from each station. They can either call lost birds or not allow him to shoot. He should be advised of the rules and informed that any attempt to circumvent them will result in lost birds or suspension. The fact that he may be a club member and local makes it a more unpleasant task on the part of shoot management who probably have to deal with him on a regular basis BUT the fault is his. AND He can always choose not to start on post 1.

    I would love to see the ATA rule changed to allow the look at each post but until that happens I expect everyone to play by the current rule.

    --- Chip King ---
     
  11. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Bill M., I see a lot more targets being wasted due to in-experienced score keepers than by shooters themselves. I agree with you about the advantage of seeing a pair before you shoot, especially for a shooter not into doubles in a competitive way.

    If oscillating doubles were required, who's up first wouldn't matter much? :) Hap
     
  12. GoldEx

    GoldEx Active Member

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    I agree with the lead off shooter being allowed to see a pair on each post change and feel this rule should be changed. Why the rest of the squad is allowed to see at least one and as many as 4 pair of targets from each post and the lead off man none defies logic.

    Jeff
     
  13. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    What, the leadoff man can't remember his holdpoints for each station?
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    If I were scoring, after the shooter did that once, I would remind him of the rules and if he repeated the offense, I would call a lost pair. Rules violations should be reported to the management.

    I shoot lead off in doubles now and then. I see no great advantage to seeing a pair before shooting on each post. The majority of the All American trap shooters also start on post one and they do not view this as a disadvantage.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    I usually shoot leadoff in doubles and have no problem with my first bird hold point. When I do, I will not shoot lead off. Most of this problem and the issue of coughing, tapping the speaker or whatever to sneak a peek can be eliminated by having the scorer not turning on the speaker until the gun is mounted. Guns up, targets come out, no shot equals lost pair.
     
  16. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    NintyT you wanted to know "But on later posts he calls pull without even mounting his gun, before shooting the first pair on that post. He's been called on it, but he thinks he's within the rules to do so. I'd like to set him straight, but so far I've not found a rule specific to this.

    Section VII Official Scoring Paragraph D Failure to Fire Sub Paragraph 2

    2. A contestant shall be allowed 2 failures to fire, for any reason other
    than stated in Paragraph C., 2., above, during each Doubles sub-event
    if the Failure to Fire occurs when the contestant attempts to shoot
    the first target of a Doubles pair, or when the contestant attempts
    to shoot the second target of a Doubles pair after the first target has
    been fired at and broken and would have been scored “DEAD”. When
    the first target of a Doubles pair is fired at and missed and that target
    would be scored “LOST”, there shall be no allowable Failure to Fire
    at the second target. (See exception in VII., E., 11., f.) When a pair is
    ruled lost there shall be no “Failure to Fire” charged. When the first or
    second allowable Failure to Fire occurs in any Doubles sub-event, the
    contestant shall be allowed to call for and fire at another pair of targets
    and the result of the shots at the new pair will be scored in accordance
    with these Official Rules.

    In this rule it refers to Paragraph C., 2., above the rule that is referred to is below.

    2. When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant’s
    recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the
    contestant voluntarily does not fire;

    Now I don't know about you but the way I read this if your Mr. clever calls for the target and his gun is in the truck this rule should apply. If he is not ready to shoot he has no business calling for the target. If he does he should suffer the consequences, Lost Pair

    Just the way I read the rules also my opinions

    Bob Lawless
     
  17. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    The PITA rules allow for the leadoff person to call for and see a set of targets on each post.

    I personally feel this is a poor rule. It only wastes more target. Club expenses are high enough.

    I have shot lead off for 15 or so years. I do not have a problem with knowing where the first target will be on each post. I rarely miss a first target, and when I do it is clearly my fault for an improper move. Now for the second
    target I need to find some reasonable excuse for my inability. - Jim
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I read it just as Bob L. does. It's a lost pair. No other call possible.

    Neil
     
  19. John Thompson

    John Thompson TS Member

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    I have heard that the practice of "seeing a pair" for the lead off shooter is legal in PITA. I have never shot PITA but I recall seeing this in print.
     
  20. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    The first question to be answered is whether the shooter thinks they are operating under PITA rules or ATA rules.

    PITA rules permit seeing a pair on each post by the leadoff shooter.

    ATA rules permit seeing one initial pair at post one by the leadoff shooter and no more for the duration of the round.

    PITA needs to change their rule to conform the the ATA rule - it is a wasteful practice.

    We really need rule enforcement and the only proper way to do it is to ensure we have a referee AND a scorer on each field. A shooter participating in an ATA sanctioned event and calls for a pair on each station should be penalized - why shoot management permits a shooter to get away with that practice is beyond me - one warning and next offense you take a two bird penalty - that should fix the problem.
     
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