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More felt recoil with X-Full choke than Cylinder?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Easystreet, Jun 13, 2009.

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  1. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

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    LOL. I thought that the jokes went into a different section of this forum. Ha ha ha.

    Easystreet
     
  2. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    I am a believer. HMB
     
  3. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

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    Actually, you asked a two-part question. (1) Do extra full chokes cause more felt recoil? and (2) Did Digweed give up on extra full chokes because of this (supposedly) greater recoil?

    The answer to the first part is NO. The hypothesis of the second part is laughable. Do you think Big George is going to wimp out and select a choke other than what he feels is best due to being punished by RECOIL? Ha ha.

    When George uses a more open choke (and sometimes he does), it's because he feels that it increases his chances of breaking the target, not because the tighter chokes give greater recoil.

    I can see it now. Big George is tied for the lead in a tournament as he enters the last station which has long 60 yard crossing targets. He starts to select the X-Full chokes which he knows he needs to reliably break those targets, BUT, after thinking about his tender shoulder, he decides to put in a pair of Cylinder chokes instead. LOL. This is funny if it weren't so absurd.

    Easystreet
     
  4. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I'd think the wad and shot load hitting the tighter constriction at 800 MPH would have a more pulling away effect rather than more recoil? Maybe it's that initial forward move that slightly pulls the gun forward first then jams you with felt recoil? Sorta like fine tuning frog hair? :) Hap
     
  5. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    I think we should rely on science to answer this question. Since recoil equals velocity times the weight of the payload, then the choke that produces the higher feet per second will have the most recoil. HMB
     
  6. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Hap I think it is actually the back pressure from the air in front of the charge that creates the effect. Think of the force of an open garden hose then put a nozel with constriction and it pushes back.

    I have personally observed the same phenomenon particularly with tight bores and constrictions over .035. I can not say that I have noticed it in a bore over .740

    Joe
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    HMB, how about a picture? I do see a couple pellets out in front of the main charge, reckon those are the speedsters creating all that felt stuff?

    <a href="http://s142.photobucket.com/albums/r104/HapMecTweaks/?action=view&current=shotgun-shot-seq-1g.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Yes, science and math says they are faster but how much felt difference can that make? Hap
     
  8. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Even Leo Harrison III has said he feels the effect of recoil after a while and no big gun has ever said "Suck it up and endure it", Traping shooting is about endurance as well as hand and eye. Yes, I agree, the "apparent or felt" recoil with a full choke is greater than a modified, and even more so with the so called extra full and turkey chokes. I weigh 204 lbs and I feel it.
     
  9. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Hap,

    Nice picture. I just thought of something else that is part of the recoil equation. Bet you can't guess what.

    The fuller the choke tube, the thicker the walls of the choke. This adds weight to the gun and reduces felt recoil. HMB
     
  10. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Read page 35 of the 2008 Hodgdon Reloaders Manual. Explains recoil very well. Nothing in there says anything about chokes. The last sentence of the "Notes on Recoil"; The only real way to lessen recoil is to lower velocities, or lessen shot charge, or both. Wayne
     
  11. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Did they forget about increasing the weight of the gun? HMB
     
  12. rennerize

    rennerize Active Member

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    I think we should ask Neil!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Don
     
  13. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Honestly...where _does_ this excrement begin?


    Oh, that's right...it begins on TS.com. Some person who's probably never consistently been beyond 25 yards throws out some dumb-@$$ed opinion backed up by nothing scientific...and then attempts to cover his hiney by tossing out some George Digweed attribution (without furnishing any sort of reference).


    And even if Big George did say this - what are his qualifications to re-write his countryman's laws of mechanics?


    If the full choke can be shown with a chrono to "squeeze" those shots out at faster velocity, then I'll buy this theory without complaint. But that's with - not without, but with - an attempt being made to back it up with scientific methods. Not until.


    Otherwise, we're just arguing whether brunettes really do have thicker ___t hairs than blondes.
     
  14. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Sure it's true. But, for a reason.

    When your shooting x-full it's due to x-treme targets, your usually using stouter (hdcp) loads creating large amounts of recoil.

    When shooting cylinder, your usually shooting close in softer targets, allowing lighter loads, hence less recoil...

    Nobody said anything about the same loads........ ;-)
     
  15. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    ? for the naysayers. Will Choke/constriction increase pressure.
    Will a barrel with an obstruction create more felt recoil.

    Joe
     
  16. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Joe, that's an "explosive" question!! But, for the purposes of this thread, I'd surmise that the barrel being plugged, the ejecta traveling down the bore would work like a pneumatic piston compressing the air until the pressure had equalized, then would reverse and be pushed back into the hull creating a forward motion negating any recoil...

    in effect, a recoiless shotgun...

    (lol)
     
  17. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Recoil is recoil however percieved and felt are a different thing total redoil may be the same but the impulse makes a big difference.

    Would you prefer to be hit in the head with a baseball generating the same energy as a basketball?

    Joe
     
  18. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    I was trying to remember if this was something the late Stan Baker covered in his work with back-boring and any articles he wrote about???? His favorite comparison was with a garden hose and how it pushed against the hand of the person holding it, when the nozzle was turned down to emit it's most powerful stream. Was it just the back-boring aspect he was talking about, or was he talking aobut constricted chokes? Anybody?
     
  19. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Cripes...more excrement...garden hoses, nozzles...let's conduct the ultimate TS.com scientific experiment: let's have "Senior Smoak" (sic) ask if "Luther" has some kind of analogy about squeezing your buttcheeks real hard on a fart; make it easy so we can understand.


    Has anybody ever heard of "conservation of momentum?"


    Maybe you could Google it?


    ...Hell, maybe you could walk out in the yard and test it...scientifically, of course (scientifically, meaning, of course, documented with accurate measurements?)
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The best bet is that a full choke has less recoil than cylinder, in spite of the fact that a light operated chronograph will produce a higher reading with the tighter choke. There is no reason to think, however, that if some of the pellets are accelerated, all of them are accelerated.

    The best evidence that _not_ all are accelerated is the data from inductive chronographs. I contrast to light-operated ones, full chokes give slower readings. It's probably not that the choke has slowed the shot to a measurable degree, but rather that the choke has lengthened the shotcharge, and it probably does this by speeding up part, slowing part. If it did not slow part, the inductive reading would be faster.

    Done another way, let's consider the cylinder-barrel shot. It just goes out the hole in the end. If there's a choke, though, the leading shot hits it and is _slowed_. The shot behind it piles up (it's still going full-speed and this causes a high pressure behind the leading pellets. That's where their eventual greater speed comes from, the pressure of the ones behind. So they have to speed up, but what about the ones behind? They were slowed, that's how they applied their pressure. They may get a little back when the leading pellets exit and the still have some gas pressure behind the wad, but there's not much, time, distance, of pressure to get this done.

    There's only one way to tell for sure and it's with the ballistic pendulum I have and I doubt many others do. Maybe someday I'll find out. In the interim, Rick N's test will get the same data and I'll guarantee that no one can tell. People, in general, are terrible in that kind of test; I've never found anyone who can tell, in two consecutive shots, if they are the same or one has a grain more powder than the other.

    It's got nothing to do with pushing on air; how do rockets steer in space?

    Big M has the answer; the more the restriction the less the recoil right up to the limit of total restriction and no recoil. Plug a gun right after the shell mouth and it won't do more than vibrate if it doesn't blow up. Which also proves the independence of pressure and recoil, for obvious reasons.

    Neil
     
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